Lane filtering might become legal....

[iblastoff]

Forum Sponsor

moving out of the way because of non-stopping dangerous traffic behind you is NOT filtering. thats clearly for emergency situations only.

and there is no specific law for motorcycle filtering/splitting because almost every driving law we have is based on cars, not motorcycles. why? because as of a few years ago, motorcycles are only 1.3% of road vehicles, so theres really not much incentive to actually make/change laws specifically for motorcyclists.

but that doesnt negate the fact that IN GENERAL, if you're caught splitting/filtering, you will obviously get charged. the driving culture here definitely does NOT accept it, so you're risking your own life in doing so as well. the whole point of the potential pilot project is to not only obviously alleviate traffic for cars and bikes, but also to slowly change that culture and make drivers aware that they should start watching for filtering bikes, because obviously right now they don't expect that to happen at all.

i'm sure a lot of us do some minor filtering here and there so no one is fully innocent. but you claiming you do it all of the time (and ESPECIALLY lane splitting if you're actually doing that) is just plain stupid. all it takes is one news report of some newbie rider getting in an accident while splitting/filtering and that'll be the end of any legal push to make it legit. you've been riding for one single month. anyone whos been riding smart knows its other peoples stupidity you have to watch out for. and you have NO control over that no matter how long or far you've been riding.

i also dont get why you think its impressive or that it helps your point that you've ridden 6k??? who cares?

 

[kwtoxman]

Pretty feeble attempt at justification Nevo. No where in that link does MTO officially state it's only a "recommendation" to not lane split. It has already been mentioned that the ON HTA has specific text which makes lane splitting and filtering illegal and chargeable offense. Plus cops can use a stunt driving charge for almost anything to really stick it to someone who lane splits or filters. And it happens. http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...-do-it-Ever-been-caught-and-charged-by-Police


As for your M1 situation, that is simply the defense of necessity. There are strict conditions that need to be met for a valid defense of necessity.

The Defence of Necessity - To use the defence of necessity, the defendant must satisfy all of the requirements, as described in Perka v. R. (1984), 404-405. The defendant must prove that 1) He or she needed to commit the act to avoid immediate peril 2) No other reasonable alternative existed 3) The harm caused by the defendant was less than the harm avoided and 4) He or she could not have foreseen the emergency.

This could apply to a lane splitting scenario, but it doesn't apply lane filtering.

"The nail that sticks out get's hammered." It's a proverb for a reason.

 

[Baggsy]

Looks like I got some replies and some research about how long I've been riding. Excellent.

Should make it more interesting.

For starters, lets get the ball rolling.

If it is indeed illegal, why does the MTO officially state its not recommended rather then it being legal or illegal?

Furthermore, During the M1 examination, there is a question that comes up (I don't remember exactly how it was worded) however it asks you what you'd do in a situation if a vehicle is in front of you and another vehicle is coming in faster then you are comfortable with? The answer is that you would be expected to move forward and share the lane with the vehicle in-front of you, hence filtering.

I have done quite a lot of research on the matter and I've even spoken to a few different officers in various departments and the conclusion is that it comes down to the officer's knowledge of the law, if they choose to charge you with an offense and what ultimately happened, was it safe? Did it look safe? Were you in control of your vehicle? Was the officer is a good mood or bad? How the conversation took place, were both parties having a good time or was one rude?

In other words, you are looking at the following charges should the officer have evidence to back them up:

Failure to maintain lane.
Improper signaling.
Stunt Driving.
Careless Driving.
Reckless Driving.
Racing.

I may have missed some possible charges or violations.

If filtering or splitting is done right, nobody is put in harms way, same as if you are speeding.

I have had people change lanes last second, I have had people purposely try to block me from passing them.

Especially since I drive 140KM every-day and I've already put 6000KM+ on my R3... I only wish I had a camera to record this.

Its obvious that we live in a country where people do not know how to drive let alone feel that they should somehow punish you for getting ahead of them.

Many will know where I'm coming from and what I'm talking about, regardless what vehicle you or the road-warrior drives.

The moral of the story is that people don't like it when you pass them for whatever reason and they will try to block you, they will try to accelerate and not let you change lanes... etc

I have an European mentality, I try not to block someone from passing me, I do my best to let people go around, I don't block the left lane, I signal always and I understand what it means to drive.

Please, feel free to continue the conversation. :icon_smile:

Do you feel the irony?

 

[Nevo]

moving out of the way because of non-stopping dangerous traffic behind you is NOT filtering. thats clearly for emergency situations only.

and there is no specific law for motorcycle filtering/splitting because almost every driving law we have is based on cars, not motorcycles. why? because as of a few years ago, motorcycles are only 1.3% of road vehicles, so theres really not much incentive to actually make/change laws specifically for motorcyclists.

but that doesnt negate the fact that IN GENERAL, if you're caught splitting/filtering, you will obviously get charged. the driving culture here definitely does NOT accept it, so you're risking your own life in doing so as well. the whole point of the potential pilot project is to not only obviously alleviate traffic for cars and bikes, but also to slowly change that culture and make drivers aware that they should start watching for filtering bikes, because obviously right now they don't expect that to happen at all.

i'm sure a lot of us do some minor filtering here and there so no one is fully innocent. but you claiming you do it all of the time (and ESPECIALLY lane splitting if you're actually doing that) is just plain stupid. all it takes is one news report of some newbie rider getting in an accident while splitting/filtering and that'll be the end of any legal push to make it legit. you've been riding for one single month. anyone whos been riding smart knows its other peoples stupidity you have to watch out for. and you have NO control over that no matter how long or far you've been riding.

i also dont get why you think its impressive or that it helps your point that you've ridden 6k??? who cares?

A car "is a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people." Clearly not every driving law is based on cars.

As I've stated, I've discussed the matter with different officers from different departments across the GTA and as per my discussions, it is not obvious you will get charged. The driving culture doesn't accept a lot of things, that doesn't mean they are wrong. People that travel for long periods and distances risk their life in doing so regardless what vehicle they drive, statistically speaking. I understand the point of the pilot project and that is cool but having this discussion is pretty nifty too.

All types of vehicles filter all the time and there are specific places on the road that should have two lanes however due to unfortunate circumstance, it is a one lane road with enough traffic always turning and going straight, so the lane is always split. There are various examples of places like this which you can observe during the morning, afternoon, day and evenings of when people travel to and from work.

The one news report you are talking about is exactly the kind of B.S people use to argue certain topics and it shouldn't be taken seriously because its a specific situation that occurred once (going back to statistics). You have to watch out for other peoples stupidity regardless of what vehicle you or they are driving. There are too many people on the road that are not paying attention or allow themselves to easily get distracted. One actually does have control (perhaps not 100%, but still some control) if one is alert and expects people to do stupid things. Maybe you specifically do not because you aren't ready for such occurrences to take place on the road. I personally don't know.

The fact that someone is on a motorcycle doesn't change much of how other people are going to drive. It only changes how the rider is going to handle the situation because regardless of how you actually ride behind them, they don't care about other drivers nor do they pay attention with the biggest example of distracted driving or hogging the left lane despite up north having signs for slower traffic to use the right lane and there are tons of examples everyday where you can see people that don't care for everyone else who just wants to get by.

Pretty feeble attempt at justification Nevo. No where in that link does MTO officially state it's only a "recommendation" to not lane split. It has already been mentioned that the ON HTA has specific text which makes lane splitting and filtering illegal and chargeable offense. Plus cops can use a stunt driving charge for almost anything to really stick it to someone who lane splits or filters. And it happens. http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...-do-it-Ever-been-caught-and-charged-by-Police

"The nail that sticks out get's hammered." It's a proverb for a reason.

As for your M1 situation, that is simply the defense of necessity. There are strict conditions that need to be met for a valid defense of necessity.

This could apply to a lane splitting scenario, but it doesn't apply lane filtering.

On the page I linked, it states the following:

"In heavy traffic, some motorcycle and moped drivers try “lane splitting” by driving on the line between lanes of traffic. This is extremely dangerous. Do not do it. It puts you too close to other vehicles. Other drivers do not expect a vehicle to be in that space. Just a small movement, such as a vehicle starting to change lanes or a door opening, can cause a collision because there is no place else for you to go." Which doesn't specifically say it is illegal, just that is dangerous and not to do it.

Within regards to the HTA, what specific text are you referring to? The Failure to maintain marked lane?


As far as the police charging someone. That doesn't mean it will stick in a court of law or that it was accurate. Police can charge you with anything they want (in theory).


The example you've brought is not the same as the one used for filtering but rather for splitting or anything else including something like driving on the shoulder!

I'll find the exact specifics that have to do with the M1 situation so that we can discuss it further.

Do you feel the irony?

I don't feel the irony because there are many main reasons that justify if a person knows how to drive and its very crucial for them to be aware of their surroundings which a super large majority of the people on the road simply do not care enough to do that. They feel that looking straight in-front of their car for the next car is enough. They don't understand what it means to look forward a few cars ahead, read the situation that is happening on the road that can change in one second. They don't look what is happening behind them. They allow themselves to use an electronic device while not being able to focus enough attention to driving the vehicle. These are all skills that one develops over time and unfortunately, most drivers don't even think about it let alone establish said skills.

FYI: The rules were made for everyone to use the road, they weren't made for people who know how to drive. Those are two different things.

Another example is when you take your G2/Full G road test. You aren't proving you know how to drive. You are proving you know how to pass the test.

 

[Roadghost]

The law cannot force you to do something that endangers your life. That's in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If anyone can prove in a provincial court that filtering or splitting is safer than being caught between two bumpers in traffic that HTA section will be declared null and void. Problem is, nobody has the deep pockets to fight such a case, even though there are studies proving it is safer.

 

[iblastoff]

You have to watch out for other peoples stupidity regardless of what vehicle you or they are driving. There are too many people on the road that are not paying attention or allow themselves to easily get distracted.

The fact that you are on a motorcycle doesn't change much of how these people are going to drive. It only changes how you are going to handle the situation because regardless of how you actually ride behind them, they don't care about other drivers nor do they pay attention with the biggest example of distracted driving or hogging the left lane despite up north having signs for slower traffic to use the right lane.

do you know how traffic works? it works on predictability. you lose that when you do something clearly NOT legal AND unpredictable (at least here in canada) like lane splitting. there is a reason why the pilot project is calling for filtering past stopped cars only and why it also advocates for awareness. drivers here have to start getting used to it first. you keep yammering about how your 1 month of riding experience somehow gives you the ability to lane split/filter. that is dumb. recognize it or else theres literally no reason for this discussion.

i don't even know what you're arguing. EVERYONE HERE knows that there is no specific mention of motorcycle lane splitting/filtering in legal terms. but everyone ALSO KNOWS that you will be ticketed/charged if you're caught. if you're willing to waste your time fighting in court about this during your illustrious 1 month career or riding, well good luck to you.

 

[Nevo]

do you know how traffic works? it works on predictability. you lose that when you do something clearly NOT legal AND unpredictable (at least here in canada) like lane splitting. there is a reason why the pilot project is calling for filtering past stopped cars only and why it also advocates for awareness. drivers here have to start getting used to it first. you keep yammering about how your 1 month of riding experience somehow gives you the ability to lane split/filter. that is dumb. recognize it or else theres literally no reason for this discussion.

i don't even know what you're arguing. EVERYONE HERE knows that there is no specific mention of motorcycle lane splitting/filtering in legal terms. but everyone ALSO KNOWS that you will be ticketed/charged if you're caught. if you're willing to waste your time fighting in court about this during your illustrious 1 month career or riding, well good luck to you.

For starters, I edited my post. Sorry for not posting all that right away. You state that I keep yammering about my riding experience except that I've only mentioned that I commute a lot and I put 6k+ on my R3 since I got it.

That doesn't specifically speak to my ability to lane split or filter. It's not like I just started driving a month ago. Maybe you are quick to dismiss my driving experience on other vehicles but I strongly disagree.

There are always reasons to have discussions. Maybe you personally aren't interested in having them but I for one am.

You state that things like "EVERYONE HERE knows that there is no specific mention of motorcycle lane splitting/filtering in legal terms" but that is a vague understatement. You're essentially helping support what I'm discussing here (maybe this was not your intention?). As far as wasting my time fighting in court... it's not like I want to go to court but at the same time, if the law doesn't specifically mention the legality of this topic, then the law is clear on the matter and going to court will not be a problem (other then obviously loosing time from work and whatnot) but it would only help the case further that filtering and splitting should become legal legal.

 

[jc100]

Just carry on carrying on...you obviously know best...despite what others (with more than 1 month riding) are telling you. Personally if you do this crap in Ontario and you have seen the drivers in this province and what they are capable of on a daily basis, your intelligence requires questioning. The possibility of a charge from one of our finest on perhaps not one of his finest days makes it even more dumb.

Lane splitting/filtering is legal in the UK but my brother on his fazer still got a door prize from an idiot that cost him his bike and a fair few injuries there. That’s with “aware” drivers with stricter licensing requirements used to lane splitting motorcyclists and not the special semi conscious distracted idiots we have here.

 

[arogal]

I know this has nothing to do with lane "filtering", but I was on the 403 eastbound this morning between Winston Churchill and Erin Mills and someone on a naked bike FLEW past me doing 80-100km between the HOV lane and fastlane. All I could do was shake my head and wait to hear sirens in the next 10 minutes. I am all for filtering, but lane splitting at this level is a death wish. All it would take is 1 car to move into the HOV lane (illegally across the double solid lines) and he'd be toast.
Atleast with lane filtering the cars are stopped and there really isn't much room for them to turn into a lane, but with splitting anything can happen at any given time.
Who were you on the 403 this morning! I hope you made it to your final destination safe.

 

[Riceburner]

yep. Riding a bike doesn't mean you aren't an idiot.

 

[mech9t5]

Especially since I drive 140KM every-day and I've already put 6000KM+ on my R3...

If you are going to talk about lane splitting safety, you should leave out the fact that you do 140km everyday. Discredits your entire post.

Also, at 140km everyday, you obviously aren't riding in traffic so you don't need to worry about lane splitting or filtering. Slow moving traffic is where filtering is needed. It is not needed when people are doing 100km on the highway but you want to do 140km. Filtering is absolutely dangerous in those situations.

Last, this might sound preachy but... don't be overconfident because you have 6000km seat time. 6000km at 140km/h the entire way doesn't give you much varied experience. As an example, riding downtown toronto might get you 600km but those 600km will give you way more experience in awareness and situational skills. Besides other drivers (who are more aggressive downtown), you have to be on the look out for pedestrians jay walking, cyclists running reds, cabbies pulling u-turns out of nowhere, people jumping out of streetcars onto the road in front of you, street car tracks (disaster in the wet), etc.

 

[LePhillou]

If you are going to talk about lane splitting safety, you should leave out the fact that you do 140km everyday. Discredits your entire post.

Also, at 140km everyday, you obviously aren't riding in traffic so you don't need to worry about lane splitting or filtering. Slow moving traffic is where filtering is needed. It is not needed when people are doing 100km on the highway but you want to do 140km. Filtering is absolutely dangerous in those situations.

Last, this might sound preachy but... don't be overconfident because you have 6000km seat time. 6000km at 140km/h the entire way doesn't give you much varied experience. As an example, riding downtown toronto might get you 600km but those 600km will give you way more experience in awareness and situational skills. Besides other drivers (who are more aggressive downtown), you have to be on the look out for pedestrians jay walking, cyclists running reds, cabbies pulling u-turns out of nowhere, people jumping out of streetcars onto the road in front of you, street car tracks (disaster in the wet), etc.

It's like the difference between doing long distance running on flat surfaces vs doing obstacle course racing. Long distance running does give you some "general fitness" but doesn't prepare you at all for all the obstacles. Filtering is about slow speed control and gymkhana abilities.

 

[jc100]

If you are going to talk about lane splitting safety, you should leave out the fact that you do 140km everyday. Discredits your entire post.

Also, at 140km everyday, you obviously aren't riding in traffic so you don't need to worry about lane splitting or filtering. Slow moving traffic is where filtering is needed. It is not needed when people are doing 100km on the highway but you want to do 140km. Filtering is absolutely dangerous in those situations.

Last, this might sound preachy but... don't be overconfident because you have 6000km seat time. 6000km at 140km/h the entire way doesn't give you much varied experience. As an example, riding downtown toronto might get you 600km but those 600km will give you way more experience in awareness and situational skills. Besides other drivers (who are more aggressive downtown), you have to be on the look out for pedestrians jay walking, cyclists running reds, cabbies pulling u-turns out of nowhere, people jumping out of streetcars onto the road in front of you, street car tracks (disaster in the wet), etc.

I think he means he does 140 km distance every day. I may be wrong though.

 

[Kibosh3]

....

Lane splitting/filtering is legal in the UK but my brother on his fazer still got a door prize from an idiot that cost him his bike and a fair few injuries there. That’s with “aware” drivers with stricter licensing requirements used to lane splitting motorcyclists and not the special semi conscious distracted idiots we have here.

Agreed. Unfortunately people are not used to that sort of behavior from motorcycles; they are not expecting this.

PLUS as cool as it sounds to have lane splitting, if I'm driving my car I don't want a bike in between mine and someone else's - I like my stuff too much.
It's not that I don't trust other peoples' abilities, it's just that I don't know you and don't want you to be allowed to be legally close enough to damaging my property.

 

[mech9t5]

I think he means he does 140 km distance every day. I may be wrong though.

if 140km distance, then my bad.

 

[Low rider]

I filter now because I think it's the grey area.

After it's legal, the sidewalk becomes the grey area.

Guess where I'll be driving???

Bicycle lanes are mine too.

 

[Trials]

I filter now because I think it's the grey area.

After it's legal, the sidewalk becomes the grey area.

Guess where I'll be driving???

Bicycle lanes are mine too.

:blob4:

 

[Jayv]

Agreed. Unfortunately people are not used to that sort of behavior from motorcycles; they are not expecting this.

PLUS as cool as it sounds to have lane splitting, if I'm driving my car I don't want a bike in between mine and someone else's - I like my stuff too much.
It's not that I don't trust other peoples' abilities, it's just that I don't know you and don't want you to be allowed to be legally close enough to damaging my property.

This is probably the reason why they are starting the pilot program in the Downtown Core. I've never had any issues "filtering" downtown as the average driver expects to see a motorcycle/scooter or a cyclist making time during congested traffic. However anything outside of the Core and it's a completely different ball game, i won't even attempt to try it. Drivers seem to be more prominent in their entitlement of the road belongs to them and screw you and why should you get ahead of me attitude.

 

[h0ck3y]

From CBC this morning: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...between-lanes-of-traffic-in-toronto-1.4744336

Nothing new really, but I was not aware of a potential pilot project on Richmond and Adelaide Streets.

 

[Trials]

Wow, if that's our intersection filtering poster child we are all sunk.

Ok, so how does this filter thing work, I've squeezed between 2 lines of cars being cautious not to clip their mirrors or scratch their paint and I made my way up to the intersection, so now I'm sitting cozy between 2 cars that are totally aggravated with my presence and the light turns green !
:headbang: the race is on for the next light! Oh wait :| it's highly illegal to race, I better just ride regular speed and hope those guys I just passed don't cream me with their mirrors or crush my legs.


Oh oh, the next light turned green before I snaked to the front of the line :/ you know that game where the music stops and you have to find a chair real fast, but there are fewer chairs then there are people, now I'm the guy left standing.

... How is this really safer for anyone?

Forum Sponsor