-D-
Banned
Taxi drivers use Nissan Altima's and Toyota Camry's.
They put a lot of km and run those cars hard.
That gives us insight into reliability. They wouldn't be using them is those cars leave them stranded.
hmmm, why no Honda Accords.
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@Brian P and other auto ppl - leased cars wtih high mileage?
- Thread starter -D-
- Start date
Taxi drivers use Nissan Altima's and Toyota Camry's.
They put a lot of km and run those cars hard.
That gives us insight into reliability. They wouldn't be using them is those cars leave them stranded.
hmmm, why no Honda Accords.
-D-
Banned
rubber pieces need time to fail, it's the heat and cold (uv) etc...
I don't see a car driving 90% of the time on hwy having age related issues.
Also, at the least you will know the vehicle service history.
There was a fully loaded Infinity M35 Hybrid (2014 I think)...for cheap.
I am not saying I am going to buy the car.
I am just asking from a real world technical view.
If you took a brand new bike (0km) and rode it non-stop across the country on highways only.
You end with 50K, yes, you stopped to replace tires and of course have the bike inspected every 10-15K when you swapped tires.
Do you think that bike would have problems if you buy it with 50k?
Short time, high km's vs. several years with the same or lower km's.
It's my opinion that it's the time factor that effects the cars more and the exposure to the elements.
rubber dries out, rust builds up and causes issues with time (corrosion and erosion)
I don't see a car driving 90% of the time on hwy having age related issues.
Also, at the least you will know the vehicle service history.
There was a fully loaded Infinity M35 Hybrid (2014 I think)...for cheap.
I am not saying I am going to buy the car.
I am just asking from a real world technical view.
If you took a brand new bike (0km) and rode it non-stop across the country on highways only.
You end with 50K, yes, you stopped to replace tires and of course have the bike inspected every 10-15K when you swapped tires.
Do you think that bike would have problems if you buy it with 50k?
Short time, high km's vs. several years with the same or lower km's.
It's my opinion that it's the time factor that effects the cars more and the exposure to the elements.
rubber dries out, rust builds up and causes issues with time (corrosion and erosion)
10 years means nothing when they company folds....
have fun getting parts and service.... not sure why anybody would buy one of those....
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mitsubishimotors-autos-plant-idUSKBN0UL0KB20160107
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Toyota and Nissan drop their pants large when selling to large rental car dealers, it looks great on their sales figures and for marketing when in reality, they are moving them at a miniscule profit.
Of course they are then sold on the wholesale market when Avis, Budget, et all are done with them and they end up being sold as Taxis and such....
Honda is a staunch opposer to lending their cars to rental fleets as they feel it diminshes the brand value of the car and keeps profits up.
It's one of the reasons why Honda's enjoy some of the highest resale values on the market.
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More time to type now. I'm a high mileage driver because of my job. I've only once bought new. There's another thread going from "nakkers" about his various company car selections. His company buys new and sells them with ~ 100,000 km. In my situation, I can buy whatever I want, I own the vehicle but I get paid mileage at the max rate that Revenue Canada allows. If I buy something that is cheaper to keep going than what Revenue Canada allows then I keep the difference. I've found it best to buy something with ~ 100,000 km on it and drive it until it is no longer economically viable to keep it going. Obviously this means fixing stuff from time to time. It comes with the territory of driving older vehicles.
Bought a 3 year old (at the time) 1996 VW Passat TDI, manual, with 95,000 km, sold it 7 years later with 462,000 km on it. Things gone wrong along the way ... strut bearings, wheel bearings, shocks, the power supply for the instrument cluster (this was a trouble spot on these cars), a few nuisances with door latches and locks and the like, and I had to get the air conditioning fixed once. Never had an issue with the engine or the transmission. At the time I sold it (10 years old) it had original engine, original turbo, original injection pump, original transmission, original clutch (but it was starting to slip), and the body was still generally in good shape but you could see the rust spots starting to poke through. When I sold it, the first person to look at it brought his mechanic, took a test drive, and bought it ... and the mechanic said that if the other guy hadn't bought it, he would have. Few little headaches here and there but this was a good car. It still drove pretty much as well at the end as it did to begin with.
Bought a 2006 Jetta TDI manual new to replace it. This was a good car. I eventually sold it with just short of 430,000 km on it and only by that time did it need to be taken off the road for a month to fix stuff. Only thing that was something of a headache during my stewardship was wheel bearings ... all four corners were replaced between about 170,000 and 240,000 km (so it was overdue for the second go-around). The overrunning clutch for the alternator was another little nuisance; had that little sucker break twice. By the time I was done with it, the clutch was finished, the EGR cooler was leaking (trouble spot on this engine), it had what I thought was a seized strut bearing but which turned out to be a broken front spring, and it was due for timing belt and water pump. Original A/C, original engine, original turbo, original transmission, original clutch but as mentioned it was finished. Depreciation + repairs was around 10 cents per kilometer. Fuel was around 6 cents per kilometer. Not bad.
I have now separated the bike-hauling duty from the daily-driving duty, with two separate vehicles. The tow vehicle is a 2014 Ram ProMaster full size van bought new. The beater is a 2008 smart that I bought cheaply (6 grand) with 90,000 km on it and which now has 225,000 km on it ... and I've done nothing but regular oil changes, and the spark plugs and air filter a couple of times, with the only expensive repair outside of that was doing the struts and springs at around 125,000 km - these things have cheap OEM suspension parts so I opted for a Bilstein kit. Obviously this car is no VW diesel and I never expected to get 400,000 km out of it ... at 225,000 km I'm well past having my money's worth. The end of this car is in the foreseeable future. I know there are worn-out bushings and sway-bar links in the front end, and I know the clutch is knackered. And the air conditioning has stopped working. And the "check engine" light comes and goes with a P0410 code (secondary air injection) that no one seems to know how to permanently fix. And everything that faces forward has been sandblasted and rock-chipped. The car is worth nothing at this point and fixing it up properly would probably require 3 grand of work - but I've had my money's worth and then some. If this car were to be dropped in the shredder tomorrow, my depreciation plus repairs would be 7 cents per km and fuel is around 6 cents per km ... cheapest car to keep going that I've ever owned.
I think I've done quite alright for none of these vehicles being Sunny S approved. The next one won't be, either. Honda doesn't build anything that I like. Has to be a small car, partly because the van eats up most of the driveway and partly because I like small cars. Current contenders are: the new generation smart with a proper manual transmission (reason: this is likely the only way my current vehicle is worth any more than zero as a trade in - and the new one is far nicer than the one I have), Fiat 500 manual, new generation Chevrolet Spark manual (if only because it's cheaper than the other two - and I've had the previous-generation Spark as a rental and I'm okay with them). I've done no test driving yet; that may yet knock some of them off the list. I won't rule out a Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost, either. I've had Fiestas as rental cars and I'm totally okay with those, too.
Bottom line is that on high mileage vehicles used similarly to how I drive them, provided the scheduled maintenance has been done, the engine and transmission are likely the least of your worries, but wheel bearings, suspension ball joints and tie-rod ends and bushings, and shocks take a beating and these aren't scheduled maintenance items; the only maintenance is by replacing them when they are worn out. Oh, and check forward-facing painted surfaces. With the Jetta, I put 3M paint protection film on the front of the hood and fenders, and it did a good job there, but the grille and headlights and windshield still end up being sandblasted.
Bought a 3 year old (at the time) 1996 VW Passat TDI, manual, with 95,000 km, sold it 7 years later with 462,000 km on it. Things gone wrong along the way ... strut bearings, wheel bearings, shocks, the power supply for the instrument cluster (this was a trouble spot on these cars), a few nuisances with door latches and locks and the like, and I had to get the air conditioning fixed once. Never had an issue with the engine or the transmission. At the time I sold it (10 years old) it had original engine, original turbo, original injection pump, original transmission, original clutch (but it was starting to slip), and the body was still generally in good shape but you could see the rust spots starting to poke through. When I sold it, the first person to look at it brought his mechanic, took a test drive, and bought it ... and the mechanic said that if the other guy hadn't bought it, he would have. Few little headaches here and there but this was a good car. It still drove pretty much as well at the end as it did to begin with.
Bought a 2006 Jetta TDI manual new to replace it. This was a good car. I eventually sold it with just short of 430,000 km on it and only by that time did it need to be taken off the road for a month to fix stuff. Only thing that was something of a headache during my stewardship was wheel bearings ... all four corners were replaced between about 170,000 and 240,000 km (so it was overdue for the second go-around). The overrunning clutch for the alternator was another little nuisance; had that little sucker break twice. By the time I was done with it, the clutch was finished, the EGR cooler was leaking (trouble spot on this engine), it had what I thought was a seized strut bearing but which turned out to be a broken front spring, and it was due for timing belt and water pump. Original A/C, original engine, original turbo, original transmission, original clutch but as mentioned it was finished. Depreciation + repairs was around 10 cents per kilometer. Fuel was around 6 cents per kilometer. Not bad.
I have now separated the bike-hauling duty from the daily-driving duty, with two separate vehicles. The tow vehicle is a 2014 Ram ProMaster full size van bought new. The beater is a 2008 smart that I bought cheaply (6 grand) with 90,000 km on it and which now has 225,000 km on it ... and I've done nothing but regular oil changes, and the spark plugs and air filter a couple of times, with the only expensive repair outside of that was doing the struts and springs at around 125,000 km - these things have cheap OEM suspension parts so I opted for a Bilstein kit. Obviously this car is no VW diesel and I never expected to get 400,000 km out of it ... at 225,000 km I'm well past having my money's worth. The end of this car is in the foreseeable future. I know there are worn-out bushings and sway-bar links in the front end, and I know the clutch is knackered. And the air conditioning has stopped working. And the "check engine" light comes and goes with a P0410 code (secondary air injection) that no one seems to know how to permanently fix. And everything that faces forward has been sandblasted and rock-chipped. The car is worth nothing at this point and fixing it up properly would probably require 3 grand of work - but I've had my money's worth and then some. If this car were to be dropped in the shredder tomorrow, my depreciation plus repairs would be 7 cents per km and fuel is around 6 cents per km ... cheapest car to keep going that I've ever owned.
I think I've done quite alright for none of these vehicles being Sunny S approved. The next one won't be, either. Honda doesn't build anything that I like. Has to be a small car, partly because the van eats up most of the driveway and partly because I like small cars. Current contenders are: the new generation smart with a proper manual transmission (reason: this is likely the only way my current vehicle is worth any more than zero as a trade in - and the new one is far nicer than the one I have), Fiat 500 manual, new generation Chevrolet Spark manual (if only because it's cheaper than the other two - and I've had the previous-generation Spark as a rental and I'm okay with them). I've done no test driving yet; that may yet knock some of them off the list. I won't rule out a Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost, either. I've had Fiestas as rental cars and I'm totally okay with those, too.
Bottom line is that on high mileage vehicles used similarly to how I drive them, provided the scheduled maintenance has been done, the engine and transmission are likely the least of your worries, but wheel bearings, suspension ball joints and tie-rod ends and bushings, and shocks take a beating and these aren't scheduled maintenance items; the only maintenance is by replacing them when they are worn out. Oh, and check forward-facing painted surfaces. With the Jetta, I put 3M paint protection film on the front of the hood and fenders, and it did a good job there, but the grille and headlights and windshield still end up being sandblasted.
It's a shame, Honda Fit is far superior, I'm fairly sure roomier, far far far more reliable and an absolute blast to drive, esp the last generation. You can opt for the manual in all trim levels across the board.
For even more practicality, the cool Fit based HRV suv with more power can be had with a manual
And the Honda's will be worth something when you get rid of it.... lol.
Sent from my Passport
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The Fit is extremely roomy inside and gets amazing reviews.
If I were going to buy something similar to what I consider to be junk in comparison (Spark and Fiat) I'd just get the Mitsubishi for $10k with the 10 year warranty and 7 year 0% financing.
Have ther improved the final gear ratio for highway? If memory service, they are geared rather low, similar to a Beetle.
Hate having a vehicle buzz at highway speeds.
As for the op, Brian has you covered.
While I don't get to drive premium vehicles, the wear items seem to be the same regardless of the vehicle.
Suspension bits rattle and a lot of dealers just grease the hell out of them to keep them quiet during a test drive.
If you get through a winter, the thaw will expose the creaks and moans of those parts needing replacement.
But the power train and basic structure will hold up well.
I was looking at going this route when it was rumoured our car program was being discontinued. Thought, eff it, going to either go real cheap like a VW TDI Or real nice and get a Beemer or Benz or premium Asian machine and just run up the miles.
If you can do the work or have a good mechanic to source the parts, it's not a bad route to take.
The Fit is the closest thing Honda makes to something I'd consider. I haven't driven one. It may retain resale value better but it's also a few grand more to begin with for a trim level that I'd buy ... and the other vehicles are more likely to be able to be bought new with a discount from MSRP (if the Honda dealer tells me to go take a hike ... I will do just that). By the time it has 250,000 km on it, it matters squat to me whether it's worth $1000 or $0. I know the Fit has better folding rear seats and a more useful cargo area ... the lack thereof is one of the things I don't like about the Fiesta.
I have to think about suppliers and customers, too. The car I have was pretty much built by Magna (and so is the new generation), so that's OK. I do a lot of work for GM, Ford, and FCA suppliers and expect this to continue. Supplier discounts on new vehicles can be a factor ...
I have to think about suppliers and customers, too. The car I have was pretty much built by Magna (and so is the new generation), so that's OK. I do a lot of work for GM, Ford, and FCA suppliers and expect this to continue. Supplier discounts on new vehicles can be a factor ...
Tldr,
But my 2005 Pilot was ~$40k new. I bought it in 2014 for $6k with 190k on it. I'm at 230k now. I've put new tires on it, and brakes. Both my previous minivans were off lease purchases with 100k on them. Sold both at 230k. I will continue to roll the dice and purchase high milage vehicles. Ymmv.
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But my 2005 Pilot was ~$40k new. I bought it in 2014 for $6k with 190k on it. I'm at 230k now. I've put new tires on it, and brakes. Both my previous minivans were off lease purchases with 100k on them. Sold both at 230k. I will continue to roll the dice and purchase high milage vehicles. Ymmv.
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@ Joe Bass when is the timing belt replacement due on that 3.5?
What is the cost? That's one of the draw backs of good engine. Think the tranny might have some known issues but, that is hit or miss.
Had a 2005 Saturn VUE with that power train. Loved it at the time.
^ Honda had plenty of issues with automatic transmissions back then, but you're almost at the point where it don't matter no more.
edit: Timing belt replacement interval on that engine is 100,000 mi / 160,000 km and I betcha it has never been done.
edit: Timing belt replacement interval on that engine is 100,000 mi / 160,000 km and I betcha it has never been done.
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@nakkers @BrianP I was told something about 2 different trans oils that I should change regularly, which I will.
Iirc the timing belt was changed ~145k (the benefits of it previously being my BILs vehicle ). It was about a g, maybe $1500. If I can get it to last until 350k, it will be another ~6 years and imo I'll have gotten my money's worth.
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Iirc the timing belt was changed ~145k (the benefits of it previously being my BILs vehicle ). It was about a g, maybe $1500. If I can get it to last until 350k, it will be another ~6 years and imo I'll have gotten my money's worth.
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-D-
Banned
great write up Brian.
That's good info BUT I don't think my point is being addressed.
You guys are talking about when you got an older car with high kms.
I am talking about a new car 2014 with high kms. With age comes natural deterioration, rubber gets hard, worn, salt, rust, uv light, paint is worn.
Sorry, I didn't point out that first minivan was 1999 purchased by me in 2001, second was 2005 purchased in 2007. So, almost the exact same thing. But maintenance records are key. Too many people that I've spoken to don't even do oil changes on a leased vehicle.
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I have a customer with a Pilot @ 230k who I recommend a timing belt to every time he's in. It's never been done and he doesn't care; his attitude is when it blows I'll scrap it. Seems the 3.5 belt will last, but as an example, going over on the old DOHC Zetec Fords almost always ended in bent valves not terribly long after the service interval. Another example; Audi/VW 1.8t, when they first hit the market, the interval was 120k iirc and when they started snapping early, a TSB was then issued amending the interval to 90k
Dresden
Well-known member
Couple of things to consider:
1) A new item with high wear will require higher maintenance to reflect the wear and tear items.
2) The resale value diminishes with higher mileage.
If you budget for wear and tear items needing replacement and lower resale value and still come out on top, buy it. The sweet spot is finding someone who has replaced all the wear and tear items but is having trouble moving the car due to high-mileage stigma. Hope to steal it away with a low bid and you are golden.
1) A new item with high wear will require higher maintenance to reflect the wear and tear items.
2) The resale value diminishes with higher mileage.
If you budget for wear and tear items needing replacement and lower resale value and still come out on top, buy it. The sweet spot is finding someone who has replaced all the wear and tear items but is having trouble moving the car due to high-mileage stigma. Hope to steal it away with a low bid and you are golden.
Sure it is.
Some stuff wears out with age regardless of mileage. Deterioration of rubber parts, seals, hoses, etc. This is not a problem.
Some stuff wears out with mileage and there's no preventive maintenance - just replacement. Ball joints, tie rod ends, wheel bearings, tires, etc.
Some stuff twears out with number of cold starts and this will be better off with a high mileage later model vehicle that has seen mostly long trips.
Some stuff wears out with number of gear shifts (internal clutches inside automatic transmissions are an example) and this will be better off with something that has been highway driven.
Some stuff wears out with how much the brakes are used. This will be better off with something that has been highway driven.
Some stuff just breaks randomly and there ain't nuttin' you can do about it.
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