boyoboy
Well-known member
We don't use nearly as much hydro at night, compared to daytime. That's why they want people to use hydro at night, rather then during the day. Its peak hours that tax the infrastructure. just saying.
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How do you feel about the decline of petrol vehicles?
- Thread starter 油井緋色
- Start date
We don't use nearly as much hydro at night, compared to daytime. That's why they want people to use hydro at night, rather then during the day. Its peak hours that tax the infrastructure. just saying.
Right. But you think that vast majority EV users are charging up most of their capacity during a day? Quite the opposite .... hence the affect is significantly lower and you cannot just assume that they have add all the EV capacity to the base load they have to be able provide at peak. Quite on contrary.
You know you should not make such definitive statements without knowing what you are talking about.
These irons
and DOE is still promoting research as a strong future tech
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/hydrogen-powered-cars-hitting-road
Regular ICE vehicles can run on hydrogen directly with some added lube ....many breakthroughs are coming in
https://newatlas.com/solar-hydrogen-electricity-device/52329/
this is the holy grail for hydrogen
DOE has goals for storage density these people are chasing....
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Careful swinging those facts around guys, they scare some people.
(sigh)
The hydrogen fallacy has been discussed in the EV thread. BrianP (who has a LOT of knowledge, and insider technical knowledge) wrote up quite the smackdown on why you'll never see hydrogen ever take off as a vehicle fuel.
Check out the thread at this link - if you read nothing else there, read posts 1975 through 2000, and pay particular attention to BrianP's very detailed posts.
Forget hydrogen, it's so impractical when you start to understand it better (not to mention that generating it uses more energy than you get out of it) you soon realize why ever major auto manufacturer on the planet is going electric, not hydrogen.
Many people have done the math and the generally accepted average is that EV vehicle driven for 16000km a year in Ontario non-rural area (read somewhat normal GTA off peak rate of 6.5c$/kWh) your costs will roughly be 30$/month in electricity fuel. That assume that you ONLY charge ever at home and off-peak. That's a ball park number which works for most EV users and I don't see anything wrong with it.
For more details ....
Electricity Off-Peak (per kWh) $0.065
Delivery related charges
Distribution Charge (per kWh) $0.0080
Transmission Network Rate (per kWh) $0.0074
Transmission Connection Rate (per kWh) $0.0057
Regulatory
Wholesale Market Service Rate (per kWh) $0.0036
Rural or Remote Rate Protection Charge (per kWh) $0.0003
There are other two charges, but they are NOT per kWh, bur rather fixed. So If I add up the above, you are looking at total of .... 0.09$/kWh ... you can call it 10 cents for easy math.
If you want you can fact check the 30$/monthly I mentioned earlier by considering ..... 1500km/month x 20kWh/100km (reasonable consumption for most EV's on the market) x 0.10$ = 30$ (and again, it means you never ever charge anywhere else but home at night; of course very few people rely only on that). It will kill you that I have driven 1600km and have paid probably 3$ worth of electricity. This is thanks to my work location .... so for me this car is about 6-7 times less costly on fuel (if I go with 30$).
Where in the world is your 0.40 or 0.30 or even 0.20$/kWh comes from??? You live in GTA and pay that much???
The math is not rocket science, but I have seen so many people do it wrong that it is no wonder that EV adoption is as low as it is. Crazy.
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Keep spinning your wheels.
I feel quite comfortable with my statement, because it's based on knowledge of people who actually are in the business of making EV cars ..... you know how many of these hot irons they get every day? A lot ... you know how many have actually any probability being viable solutions for mass transportation in the next 20 years. None. This is from people who are actively looking and listening for someone to bring them either a more promising battery chemistry or other form of renewable fuel. These people are not against, they just know that hydrogen fool cell is not something we will be able to use in the next at least 20 years for mass transport.
Good enough for me, but you guys can keep dreaming and in the meantime, I just plug in in the warmth of my garage ....
The other aspect is that businesses are offering free charging to draw people.
https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/20...arge-consumers-and-retailers-are-plugging-in/
and that was 5 years ago
Now
The cost of electricity is miniscule compared to getting a customer to come and say have a meal or do their shopping.
You are going out .....you're an EV owner....just like we used to look for Internet available.....you'll look for a charging station.
https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/20...arge-consumers-and-retailers-are-plugging-in/
and that was 5 years ago
Now
The cost of electricity is miniscule compared to getting a customer to come and say have a meal or do their shopping.
You are going out .....you're an EV owner....just like we used to look for Internet available.....you'll look for a charging station.
We are often paying other provinces and the USA to take our excess electricity at night.
It's just starting now, but some utilities (as was mentioned) are starting to wake up to the EV market and offer lower off peak rates than even Hydro Ones regulated rates. Unfortunately they make it up elsewhere with slightly higher on peak rates, but for a household with 2 high capacity EV's that need a good majority of a full charge ever night the savings would be quite significant.
The sooner OPG/Hydro One catches on and decides to actually reward people even more than they currently do for off peak usage, the more consumption you'll see shift to this time period. I'm not taking 6c vs 16c either (off peak vs peak), I'm talking 1 or 2 cents per kwh off peak instead.
I've never quite understood why we still charge 6c for off peak here, but instead of rewarding higher usage at night with MASSIVELY lower rates, we pay other places to take that electricity instead, or give it away at fire sale prices. It's stupid. Place a major incentive for us to USE the electricity here and have the utility actually make something on it, versus nothing.
Fact is we have too much electricity here, especially during the overnight hours. The old "it'll overload the grid!" argument has been dispelled so many times it's not even funny, but it's one of the first things that the anti-EV crowd latch on to. There's LOTS of studies and such out there that back this up, it's not just here-say. EV growth will actually be a huge PLUS for our electricity system here as electricity that OPG is basically pissing away overnight will actually earn them a return as EV's start to expand.
I specifically mentioned this in my reply. It's a fallacy to completely roll in the delivery charges to the cost of charging an EV as you are paying those anyways...unless your house uses no electricity?.
Yes, the rate does increase as you use more electricity, that's a fact, but even when you roll in those increased costs of the delivery charge sliding up a little, you are still winning MANY times over with an EV vs gasoline. So, maybe instead of 8x less expensive, you are only at 7x less expensive vs gas. I think if you asked anyone in the country if they'd like to fill their car with $0.17/L gas right now, everyone would jump up and down and say Hell Yeah - when you break down $1.25/L gas times 7x more efficient for an EV, that's what the equivalent cost of driving an EV is.
When you compare an EV to something bigger than a Cruze like we are comparing to here, the numbers get even more staggering. Compare someone driving a 17L/100KM land yacht SUV to an EV and the savings can exceed 20x easily.
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Sure, but why? What is wrong with the math I gave you above?
You somehow think they charged me more for the few piddly extra kWh I used? What would be the rational for that, before I go and waste my time pulling my bill for December.
Right, so we have all these smart automakers investing millions if not billions into Hydrogen tech R and D and clearly more and more automakers are joining.
Yet, a couple guys on a motorcycle forum claim it's not a viable tech. Uh huh. Keep preaching.
I predict Hydrogen will be the dark horse in this race and when people realize they can fill their tank in 3 minutes instead of driving around and looking for silly charging stations and waiting hours and hours for a "fill" it starts to make more and more sense.
Toronto already has 2 hydrogen filling stations going in.
Yet, a couple guys on a motorcycle forum claim it's not a viable tech. Uh huh. Keep preaching.
I predict Hydrogen will be the dark horse in this race and when people realize they can fill their tank in 3 minutes instead of driving around and looking for silly charging stations and waiting hours and hours for a "fill" it starts to make more and more sense.
Toronto already has 2 hydrogen filling stations going in.
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Did you read the article I posted a few posts back where someone actually did all this math?
Here it is again.
http://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatur...-really-cost-to-charge-that-electric-vehicle/
I wonder how many different sources will it take to convince people that it really is significantly cheaper than gas. I guess there's some holy grail charge coming our way which nobody has thought of ... well, will have to see my next bill ...
Have you bothered to read my post with all the breakdown and individual rates contributing to the 0.10$ round up, I mention it specifically .... it's all there, pls read it. Taken directly off my billing utility dashboard.
List the hidden charges out for everyone to see, pls.
boyoboy
Well-known member
In auto trader lmao. sorry to be such a ***** but I couldn't resist. I wonder if any articles exist with another view on elec costs. I opened up a can of whoop *** here. Sorry. I will agree that 30 cents a kw/hr ALL IN may be a bit too high. I still you would be hard pressed to find anyone paying less than 20 cents a kw/hr all in.
Well I agree on the dark horse for a variety of reasons but fast charging to 80% is no where near hours.
https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/12/storedot-ev-battery-demo/
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...nnounces-5-Minute-Extreme-Fast-Charge-Battery
This a huge race for the overturn of ICE that is coming very quickly.
did not know that.....good news...hydrogen buses I think are an early use that makes sense and this.
The neat thing is hydrogen can be generated in a number of ways and make good use of that excess electricity off hours.
Niagara runs, nukes run ....the wind blows...they could all be producing hydrogen and it is really clean tech and very compatible with current ICE technology.
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Did the math 3153 kw / $366.07 = 8.6 c per kwh and that is at higher low density distribution rates.
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boyoboy
Well-known member
You are right. I would
agree on 10 cents a kwhr off peak
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but what about the loses during charging. lmao. gotta give me 10% there. plus the 6% tax. Im up to 12 cents now...you don't pay any regulatory charges?... here I go again..lol forgive me please.
EDIT oh found another..the global investment fund is 4 cents a kwhr (hidden too). Im up to 16 cents a kwhr now. I'll keep looking for others. lol.
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Drove my Volt 500KM in the last week.
Cost in my old Magnum would have been about 75L of gas, so $93.75.
Cost in my Volt was 7 charges at about $1.25 each, and 4L of gas for one of those trips that exceeded my electric range. Total cost $13.75. Had I not used that little bit of gas I'd have been $8.75
There's just zero debate here, I don't know when people will get it. I saved $80 this week alone.
Careful with those facts again.
2 Hydrogen filling stations in the province.
500+ Charging stations in just the Niagara to Quebec city corridor alone.
Cost of 1 hydrogen filling station: $1.6 Million. Location - Few and far between.
Cost of average Level 2 electric charging station at home - $500 to $1500. Location - Your own driveway, and tens of thousands of other locations across North America. Every EV comes with an included Level1 charger that works on any receptacle, anywhere.
Cost of installing bank of 2 chargers at a commercial location - $1500 to perhaps $5000 worst case. Location, every parking lot.
Costs?
Cost of electricity to recharge a Chevy Bolt - $5-$8 depending on rate. Yields 380KM range.
Cost to refill Honda Clarity Hydrogen car - $83 USD, so over $100 Canadian. Yields 408KM.
You tell me which one is winning, and which one makes more sense.
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