In case you were wondering about those big scoots..... | Page 11 | GTAMotorcycle.com

In case you were wondering about those big scoots.....

MacDoc

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More about the demise of the manual transmission

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...way-from-manual-transmission/article11746795/

snip

Playing devil’s advocate, I will concede that the clutchless transmission is technically superior to the deeply flawed shift-control device known as the human being. Unlike a human, the DCT never misreads engine speed, blows a mid-corner downshift, or tries to drive in stiletto heels. And the DCT can shift in milliseconds.

The technology is now standard (no pun intended) in the world of Formula One, where engineers will do whatever it takes to cut lap times. Why let a driver interfere with the perfection of digital shifting? The DCT shifts faster than a driver can, and it automates the finicky task of rev-matching on high-speed downshifts – a digital processor reads wheel speed, then revs the motor to the perfect rpm, so even an amateur can shift without a lurch.

The first time I drove a clutchless Porsche on a race track, I was amazed: as I arced into the notoriously tricky Turn Five at Mosport (now called Canadian Tire Motorsport Park), the car ripped off a flawless, completely unbidden downshift, as if the ghost of Ayrton Senna had drifted into the Porsche’s cabin to replace me on the pedals and shift lever. The perfection of the shifts was uncanny, and the Porsche could do it all without my assistance (although there were little steering-wheel buttons I could push to command a shift, the onboard computers could time the shifts better than any human, so why bother?).

Now the ECVTs take it one step further with practically infinite ratios. Tech moves on....
 

psycho44

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yikers....1229 KM on a single day....came across this blog...round trip around Aus on a Burgman 650

You might want to read through this

http://www.max.grenkowitz.net/res/Journeys/AU/10/AroundAustralia/AroundAustraliaMapV1_50.jpg

http://www.max.grenkowitz.net/?topic=900


now that is an impressive run. :thumbup:

I did a Thunder Bay to Toronto run in one day on my 250cc scooter and it was pouring rain that day too. Don't know how many kilometers that was. And this was coming back from Vancouver Island.
 

MacDoc

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Coming to North America next year we are told
350 lb - low seat height 29" I saw a few in Europe...150s and 200s

Cool colour - smallish tank - 11 litres but then small motor should give it range. Good city scoot for sure with some presence of a larger bike.

2013-suzuki-burgman-200-7_600x0w.jpg


Review here with details tho not sure of any changes on 2014
http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/suzuki/2013-suzuki-burgman-200-ar156379.html

•••

The flagship 650 got a face lift this year and some changes - they just arrived last month and owners seem to approve of the change.

2013-suzuki-burgman-650-a-20_600x0w.jpg


One of the major players in the luxury scooters segment is the Suzuki Burgman 650 ABS. This modern scooter is packed with a long list of useful features especially designed to give you better performances and improved comfort.

For 2013, the Suzuki Burgman 650 ABS has received a few upgrades which make it slightly better than the previous generation.

Among the changes made for the 2013 Suzuki Burgman 650 ABS you’ll find a modified transmission that improves the fuel efficiency with up to 15%. You also get new front brakes and a fresh exhaust system.

The Suzuki Burgman 650 ABS is built around a 638cc, 4-stroke, liquid cooled, 2 cylinder, DOHC engine that has also received a few tweaks which help it deliver better overall performances.

Read more: http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles...i-burgman-650-abs-ar156281.html#ixzz2Ys57uImH

Price might be down a tad as well...
 

MacDoc

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I did a Thunder Bay to Toronto run in one day on my 250cc scooter and it was pouring rain that day too. Don't know how many kilometers that was. And this was coming back from Vancouver Island.
Serious riding .....1389 KM !!!!

••••

Good comparison of the Burgman 650 against the BMW offering...

First impression of the BMW C650GT from a Burgman Lover
So before I bought my 2013 BMW C650GT, I searched the web for a comparison between the pre 2013 Burgman 650 and BMW C650GT. I couldn't find anything of relevance from someone who actually rode the Burgman and switched to the BMW. In fact, most of the reviews I read about the BMW, totally ignored or glanced over the Burgmans existence, making it sound like BMW really innovated and almost created a new segment.
I picked up my C650GT on Saturday morning in Tampa, FL and rode it home to Rockville, MD. I've also had three days to scoot around on it around town. These are my initial impressions (AKA, what I already miss about the Burgman). I debated about writing this because it's going to sound awful, like I hate the BMW. I really don't, I'm just used to certain things that the BUrgman spoiled me with and will have to get used to doing things a bit different.

First, a little background. I bought a 2004 Suzuki Burgman 650 in 2006. Although I've owned other bikes before and during this time, the Burgman was the one constant and my favorite because of the ease and convenience. In the time I owned the Burgman, I was in two minor accidents, each leaving the Burgman with some quirks. One, a front disc slide got tweaked so the front brake always rubbed mildy. Second, the fairings under the right side footboard didn't fit together flush and when wind would get in there at high speeds, the rubber mat would wobble (which was pretty alarming at first when you weren't expecting it). Third, the forks probably needed relaxing because between 70-75, the whole front end would weave. Finally, the check engine light would come on if you used power mode or really pushed it. The code was 'intermittent connection' and no local shop could figure it out. These quirks made my favorite bike only my daily driver. I decided I'd sell it and buy another one in better shape.
The 2013 Burgman had just come out but I wasn't looking to spend that much. I found a 2012 Burgman (which was an upgrade as all 2012's were "Executive" models) with 915 miles for $6,499. Then I saw the BMW C650GT for sale in the BurgmanUSA classifieds for $8,500. I did a little research, visited a dealer to see one in person, and decided I didn't want to buy the same bike I've been riding for 8 years, it was time for a change, something new.

The first thing I noticed about the BMW was the storage. I had seen this at the dealer that the BMW had only two dash compartments, no center glove box. Also, the under seat area looked smaller. This didn't hit home until I arrived at the airport (4.5 hours late because of a flight delay, very patient seller!), went to throw my backpack under the seat, and it didn't fit. I had to readjust things that would have easily fit in the Burgman. My L-XXL helmets don't fit either, well not without pushing the seat closed after it makes contact with the helmet.
The dash compartments were not as practical as the Burgman either. The right side one is small with different indentations and levels, it's not a square box with a single flat surface. The left one is larger, with an accessory outlet on the back wall. This one locks with the ignition and fits a soda bottle, but would you want a soda bottle with it's condensation in the pocket with the 12V outlet? (for the record, I had installed a 12V accessory outlet in the center glovebox of my Burgman but still had the two dash pockets for all my other items). Also, the hinges on the dash pocket (and seat) seem very cheap and flimsy and are almost guaranteed to break eventually. I'm also not sure why the dash pocket doors fold down so far and are so extensive, although this did seem to keep things in a bit better than the Burgman while accessing the pockets while riding, which I don't do often. But I could open the dash pocket door into my knee and reach in and grab what I needed. The design of these doors coming down so far has made finding a practical tunnel bag difficult (as mentioned on WebBikeWorld) as the tunnel bag would have to be very narrow in order to open the doors.

The under seat storage is lit by a light on the side of the compartment that comes on with the ignition and stays on a short time after the ignition is turned off. This is a nice feature so that you don't forget to turn the light off, but being on the side, instead of under the seat, makes it useless because as soon as you put something in there, basically in front of it, it blocks all the light.

On the top of the seat, the butt rest is not as adjustable as the Burgman. The manual says you can unscrew it, release some bumpers and reattach it, but this doesn't seem like it would be much of an adjustment and is a lot of work. I never needed to adjust my Burgman seat but was surprised that it wasn't there.

The BMW sits taller than the Burgman, which I was uncertain about, but I actually prefer. The distance between the seat bumper and front floorboards seems longer too, as I can stretch my legs straight without having to sit ON the butt rest like I did with the Burgman. The floorboards however, have a little flex to them when I do this, which I don't remember on my Burgman. The metal in the floorboards looks nice too, but I'm afraid over time this accent piece will start to look poor.

The paint on the center hump makes you have to be careful and conscious as to not scuff or scratch, and the hump is angled, not flat. On long road trips, I used to occasionally place my feet on the hump. Can't do that on the BMW. The center hump feels wider than the Burgman, and the footboards feel narrower, especially towards the rear.

The BMW does not have the ignition cover or the ignition position to turn on the rear brake light. No power mode for passing (or just fun!) and no parking brake. The brake does come on when the side stand is engaged, but this doesn't help at a stoplight on an incline unless you want to stop the engine to engage the brake and remove both hands from the handlebars. This also caught me off guard as I killed the engine and dropped the side stand while coasting into a parking spot. I use the side stand much more than on the Burgman because getting the BMW on the center stand is even more difficult than it was on the Burgman. I parked on a steep decline using the side stand and the scooter stayed in place very well. As I walked away, I imagined the day in the future that I rely on the brake engaged side stand, the brake isn't adjusted properly, and I watch the scooter slowly roll forward onto it's side.

The BMW seems to have better element protection than the Burgman did stock. A Clearview XXL and then a GIVI XL improved my Burgman, but the side fairings on the BMW seem to direct the wind/rain better as I barely got wet in the storms on the ride home. The downside to the BMW fairings is that they stick out further than the dash pockets, creating a surface that is good at snagging your shirt, backpack, or skin on your knee if you dismount the scooter too quickly without thinking about it. Depending on how fast and strong you are hooked, you could possibly pull the scooter over with you.

The adjustable windshield is very nice, although this is an option on the Burgman too (and standard depending on the year). I can't wait to install n aftermarket windshield on the BMW as the factory one is too short for my taste. The option currently is whether I want wind on my head, on my chest and head, or somewhere in between. I really want the option of no wind, or wind.

When behind the windshield, the BMW is very quiet. You don't hear much, it's just you and the bike. The BMW sounds more like a Burgman 400 to me than a 650. It has that Jetsons sound to it and whine that I hear more on the Burgman 400 than it's larger counterpart. Unfortunately, this is sort of the case with the power too. The BMW is slower than the Burgman 650 with a lower top speed. When I asked the seller how he compared the BMW to the Burgman, he said that he thought the BMW felt more sturdy. I find the exact opposite. The Burgman seemed more planted and the BMW seems more affected by wind. I often would be riding the Burgman and would look down to be surprised by a speed of 100+ mph (indicated). The BMW starts weaving and shaking right after 80 mph (indicated). In fact, I tried a few times on my 14 hour trip home to hit BMW's 109 mph max speed claim. The closest I got was on a road with not another car in site (it really wobbles with anything else around) when I hit 105 mph (indicated). I was not comfortable at all and wanted to get back to my 80-85 mph comfort zone quickly. I once got a ticket for doing 115 mph on the Burgman (122 mph indicated, 115 on the radar). I felt like I was doing 60.

The BMW has heated grips and seat, which I'm sure are nice but I haven't had to use yet (you can add these to the Burgman aftermarket, I think factory on the 2013). It also has random pull out panels beneath the windshield that I can only imagine are element protection. They're random because I don't notice a difference no matter what position they're in, and whatever holds them in place when you pull them out feels like it will wear out and they'll eventually only stay in the rear (or closed) postion. I haven't actually looked up what these are supposed to do so I may be way off.

The BMW mirrors are mounted high, unlike the Burgman. Mounting high on the stalks gives you a sport bike-like view of your arms. You need to bring your elbows in to see behind you. The mirrors also vibrate and shake more since the mounts aren't as sturdy. On mine specifically, the left one much more than the right. The Burgman of course gives you a clear, steady view from below your arms.

The BMW gas tank access is under a panel at the front of the seat, sort of like the Yamaha Zuma 125. The difference is that if you pop the panel open to access the cap (it's the opposite direction of opening the seat), and you open the seat while that panel is open... the panel breaks off. BMW says they are aware of the issue and it will be resolved in a future generation.

Once you squeeze the gas pump nozzle fully into the tank and wait for the auto shut off to stop pumping gas, you'll need to pull the nozzle out, rest it against the guard and top off the fuel until you see it puddle a little or your gas gauge may not read completely full. The gauges on the BMW are quite informative, giving you an analog gauge for the speedometer (going up to 120 mph which you'll never hit) and digital gauges for everything from fuel and tach, to average MPG, average speed, temperature and more. I'm not sure how accurate the temperature gauge is, as it always seems to read higher than actual temp. Today it read 120 degrees at one point.

When you hit reserve fuel, the odometer automatically becomes a counter indicating how many miles you've ridden on reserve. Using your average MPG and knowing that the reserve is about a gallon, and you've got a while to make the next gas station once this starts.

My Burgman had the bungee hooks which I used often with a bare bungee net. The BMW does not have these, or a place for them to screw in. Using a net with hooks will scratch the grab bars more than the style on the Burgman.

The headlight on the BMW is not as bright or reach as far as on the Burgman. I use the high beam as often as possible without blinding other drivers. Also, when going around turns, you can't see in front of you. The BMW light reflects in a very distinct triangle. Imagine a triangle with the tip at the headlight and the wide base on the street about 15 feet in front of you. When you turn, the corner of the triangle base comes in towards the direction you are turning, and the other corner goes outward. This is a solid flat line on the road though so you can't see beyond the point (almost pointed straight down in the corner closest to you) where the light hits the ground straight across. Hard to explain but very obvious. I had seen a video somewhere where BMW has a complicated electronic headlight system that's supposed to help in turns, I had never had the problem they showed in the video so it looked like an infomercial selling something solving a problem that didn't exist. If this is how their non adaptive headlight system works, I now see the need. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cB_9H7NtT0. The tail lights on the BMW fog on the inside also. The fog disappears in a circle where the bulbs heat up the plastic lens.

Although slower overall and weighing more than the Burgman, the BMW feels much more nimble and corners much better than the Suzuki. It's been a long time since I looked through a turn on a maxi scooter without being conscious of the lean angle of the bike as the Burgman center stand grabbing the road taught me not to do that. The BMW with its taller stance and stiffer suspension feel almost sport like and make me want to try more twisties than I've tried to find on my Burgman.

When I first bought my Burgman in 2006, it was still relatively new and peoples reactions to it were fun to see. When I first rode it I thought it should have BMW emblems on it because it felt very luxury and well refined. Now that I own an actual BMW scooter, I think Suzuki deserves the credit for making a solid machine that has stood the test of time with minimal changes. After all these 'gripes', I still love the BMW. It's exactly what I wanted, a large scooter that can compete with the Burgman but isn't essentially the same thing I've been riding for 8 years. I'm very happy with the price I paid and the reactions on peoples faces when they see it (especially the second looks it gets once they see the emblems and the stares from BMW automobile drivers on the road). My KIA Soul had this effect in 2009 when I first bought it, as did the Burgman in the early days at gas stations and parking lots, sparking conversations about things I enjoyed chatting about. It's fast enough for my daily commute and keeps me out of trouble on longer weekend trips.

I knew that Apple had it's fan boys but had never experienced the BMW ones. From the comments at gas stations to the guy that rolled his window down to tell me "nice bike" as I merged in front of him at a highway construction zone, it gets a lot of respect. It's comfortable too. I make the trip from the DC region to FL once a year and on the Burgman, as I approached my destination, I was ready to get off the bike. After the 14 hour ride this weekend, I walked in and asked my girlfriend if she wanted to hop on and continue my ride with a 2.5 hour trip to the beach. She told me that I was crazy and to come inside.

It's a little sad to me that Suzuki has had the maxi scooter mastered for years but some only pay attention and take it seriously because a 'luxury' brand creates one. BMW definitely didn't innovate or create anything new here. They need some refinement to really compete with the convenience and practicality of the Suzuki but at least they decided that it was a worthwhile segment to enter and brought another option. Other riders and friends, who have seen me on my Burgman plenty of times, have now seemed to notice what I'm riding. "BMW puts a lot of engineering into their products", "Wow. Nice bike, luxury...", "This looks a lot better than your last bike". It's funny what some plastic emblems will do. But I'll take it.

If I were considering a BMW for $12k or a 2013 Burgman 650 for 13k, I'd probably lean towards the Burgman. But not foreseeing anyone giving up their new Burgman for a while for close to $8k, I'm glad that someone decided to list a BMW in a Suzuki forum.
http://burgmanusa.com/forums/16-all-others/56353-first-impression-bmw-c650gt-burgman-lover.html

It pretty much agreed with my own assessment - the BMW is not ready for prime time yet but has some nice things.
But that was only an hour ride evaluation.
This go over is much better.
 
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MarcosSantiago

Well-known member
MacDoc, you post with such enthusiasm, but I want to present the other side of the coin.

You quoted Peter Cheney from The Globe and Mail saying “Why let a (Formula 1) driver interfere with the perfection of digital shifting?” and he IS right (for racetrack competitions), BUT for day to day driving, I say

Why let the perfection of digital shifting interfere with my enjoyment of, my spiritual connection to the car?


Cheney wrote so himself, at the end of the article, “To me, the manual shift lever is the equivalent of the samurai’s katana – a simple device that demands endless practice and rewards the skilled practitioner. The automatic is the Gatling gun – it may get the job done, but there is no beauty in it. You may be faster around a racetrack with the PDK, but the cherry blossoms do not drift in the wind”.

My feeling right now is that an automatic transmission makes more sense in two wheels than in four... in a perfect world, maybe all the motorcycles would be automatic and all the cars would be manual.
 

MacDoc

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Yet reality is the other way around. There is real resistance on the motorcycle side except for those that use them.

My staff was dyed in the wool stick shifter.....until he drove in Toronto - now he's a big automatic enthusiast. :D

Without the ability to shift ratios to Sport and touring ( Aprilla has 3 ranges ) I'd be less of an advocate but being able to change characteristics by mapping makes so much sense and something difficult or impossible with a stick and one reason amongst others that the upper end rockets in the sports car world are moving that way.
They can offer mild mannered reporter and fire breathing monster in the same vehicle ( including suspension and motor electronic altering ).

THAT should come to mcycles as well. There is already electronic wheelie control amongst others.

Another aspect not often mentioned or even realized is that of controlling braking with both hands.....your hands are far more adept at fine motor control than the toe of a boot.

What would be cool is an LCD display that showed the balance between the braking and pending ABS cut in.
The big Honda's are using dynamic linking of some sort but being able to see the relation between the two brakes would be cool.

You still need shifting for dirt and dual sport/adventure biking so don't see it going away anytime soon and it's way cheaper to build than a sophisticated electronic system that can be mapped.

Of course the oncoming wave of electrics are going to make much of this moot.
 

MacDoc

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The light goes on...:D

osbornk
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The mountains of Marion, Va

Agreed. I don't think 95% of people/riders know it even exists much-less how nice of and all around scooter, cruiser, tourer it is. You just have to ride one
My friend spent all summer last year trying to get me to ride his 05 650. I finally rode it through the mountains on a Thursday in October and bought a 400 on Friday.
__________________
2009 Burgman 650

http://burgmanusa.com/forums/15-burgman-650/61433-burgman-650-best-midsize-touring-bike.html
 

RockerGuy

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I don't even drive an automatic car why would I ride an automatic bike?
No automatic transmission has given me the joy of a manual yet.
I'll stick with my gixxer thanks
 

CafeRay

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MacDoc, you post with such enthusiasm, but I want to present the other side of the coin.

You quoted Peter Cheney from The Globe and Mail saying “Why let a (Formula 1) driver interfere with the perfection of digital shifting?” and he IS right (for racetrack competitions), BUT for day to day driving, I say

Why let the perfection of digital shifting interfere with my enjoyment of, my spiritual connection to the car

Digital shifting in performance cars is not about performance. They are being pushed by German and Italian manufacturers for several reasons: a high number of transmission failures in the US because Americans tend to drag race and make huge shifting errors; big sales in emerging markets where car drivers have little experience with even driving a car; fuel economy, which means 8-10 speed transmissions; and they hate to make a different model for 10% of sales or less. Ferrari does not make cars for driving enthusiasts, they make cars for posers in The Middle East and China who buy the cars to tool around in heavy traffic, or rarely drive. That is their future market.

I firmly believe that if all cars had manual transmissions, we would prevent a huge number of distracted driving accidents, and the now popular gas/brake mix up accidents in the elderly.

Aprilia now has the Mana automatic bike...sales are crap.

Burgman's are really nice motorcycles, and make perfect sense in commuting, and in some ways , more sense than a Gold wing.

My latest car is automatic DCT, because a manual in stop and go traffic sucks. For bikes, the clutches have easy pulls these days, but I understand the appeal of automatics in scooters.

I think SS motorcycles will mostly be semi-automatics in the future, mostly for reliability and carbon emissions.
 

Brian P

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I firmly believe that if all cars had manual transmissions, we would prevent a huge number of distracted driving accidents, and the now popular gas/brake mix up accidents in the elderly.

It is my understanding that, for cars, a "sudden acceleration syndrome" of the type that Toyota recently had some difficulties with, has never been reported for any vehicle with a manual transmission.

A manual transmission vehicle has a built-in engine disconnecting device that is not reliant upon software programming and cannot be overruled by electronics, and which the operator of the vehicle inherently must know how to use and be in the habit of regularly using, and which inherently renders the vehicle unusable if the device itself fails ... a clutch pedal.
 

MacDoc

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Why let the perfection of digital shifting interfere with my enjoyment of, my spiritual connection to the car

or the horse as the buggy whip driver might quip. :D

The high tech sport auto trannies are not being done because they are cheaper...it's because they are better.
In addition, a manual tranny costs less.

It's no loss, says Ken Hill, vice president of operations for Automotive Adventures in Bellevue, Washington, and a professional racer and driving educator. "Some people are stuck on the mindset that a driver is faster with a manual box," Hill says. But there's a reason why some major performance-car manufacturers, including Ferrari and Jaguar, no longer offer traditional manual transmissions, he says. "They just aren't as good."


Fuel economy??? nope...

With the 2012 Ford Focus, it's the six-speed automatic version that performs better. It gets 28 mpg in the city, 38 mpg on the highway and 31 mpg combined. If you spring for the Super Fuel Economy option package, which also uses the six-speed automatic transmission, fuel economy rises to 28 city/40 highway and 33 mpg combined. When equipped with a conventional manual transmission, the Focus can't match the automatic: 26 city/36 highway and 30 mpg combined. The 2012 Honda Fit with a manual transmission gets 27 mpg in the city, 33 mpg on the highway and 29 mpg combined. The automatic, by contrast, gets 28 city/35 highway and 31 mpg combined.

especially with ECVTs coming on in many many vehicles where the combination offers a sport mode and an economy mode.

Lexus not shy about it either

http://www.lexus.com.bh/technology_...usly_variable_transmission_ECVT.asp?model=All
 

mimico_polak

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While I will agree that there are less and less cars available in manual I think this is a shame. Hard to talk on the phone and shift in traffic, can't drink your coffee as easily and work the clutch and shifter.

To me, driving a manual car is just enjoyable. Simple as that. I bought an auto so my wife can drive the car. I miss the hell out of a stick shift and will go back for my next vehicle.

You can tell me it's faster to have an auto, better fuel economy, better reliability, whatever....a manual transmission is just more fun. Nothing wrong with auto, but its boring to me. I even researched converting my auto to a manual but the $ and effort isn't worth it:(
 

Flywheel

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It is my understanding that, for cars, a "sudden acceleration syndrome" of the type that Toyota recently had some difficulties with, has never been reported for any vehicle with a manual transmission.

A manual transmission vehicle has a built-in engine disconnecting device that is not reliant upon software programming and cannot be overruled by electronics, and which the operator of the vehicle inherently must know how to use and be in the habit of regularly using, and which inherently renders the vehicle unusable if the device itself fails ... a clutch pedal.

What was the end result of all that foolishness with Toyotas anyway? Was it human error?

Were all at the mercy of electronics now, manual shifting or not. The current SS top dogs are riddled with them too and it's only going to become more integrated. Pretty soon, we'll have clutch and shifter by wire, just like the throttle. Who's at the bottom? The Gixxer, without all the gizmos.

Not a huge deal really, as long as we get the choice. Love riding the Burg just as much as my previous shifty bikes. Driving stick remains awesome, so I get it. If traffic get lousy and my knee gets sore, I don't wish for an auto, I wish for better roads.
 
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CafeRay

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It is my understanding that, for cars, a "sudden acceleration syndrome" of the type that Toyota recently had some difficulties with, has never been reported for any vehicle with a manual transmission.

A manual transmission vehicle has a built-in engine disconnecting device that is not reliant upon software programming and cannot be overruled by electronics, and which the operator of the vehicle inherently must know how to use and be in the habit of regularly using, and which inherently renders the vehicle unusable if the device itself fails ... a clutch pedal.

Remember that woman crying before congress about her wild Toyota? Well, Toyota had a data sensor in that proved she hit the gas instead of the brake. Her case, and hundreds others, were thrown out and Toyota is now counter-suing.
Audi had the same issue in the 80s. There was nothing wrong with the cars. This has led to US cars having massive brake pedals, not like the European models.

You cannot drive to work in traffic and eat hot soup, or apply makeup, or text your BFF with a manual transmission car.
 

CafeRay

Well-known member
What was the end result of all that foolishness with Toyotas anyway? Was it human error?
.
It was human error, and fraud.
The Toyota case was about two things: lawyers looking for a quick buck, and Congressmen looking to slam foreign car makers to aid the collapsed US car industry in 2008-9.

This happens over and over because the US does not have "loser pays" laws for lawsuits and pre-mediation like Canada.
 

Flywheel

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Remember that woman crying before congress about her wild Toyota? Well, Toyota had a data sensor in that proved she hit the gas instead of the brake. Her case, and hundreds others, were thrown out and Toyota is now counter-suing.
Audi had the same issue in the 80s. There was nothing wrong with the cars. This has led to US cars having massive brake pedals, not like the European models.

You cannot drive to work in traffic and eat hot soup, or apply makeup, or text your BFF with a manual transmission car.

Interesting about the chunky NA brake pedals. I think the Audi incidents were also responsible for the brake-ignition interlock too: http://www.autosafety.org/audi-sudden-acceleration. Man, talk about a confederacy of dunces. Even with big boots in a standard car I've never even come close to confusing the small pedals.

I wouldn't be so sure that a manual shifter would prevent determined idiots. They would just crash more often, with the increased possibility of you being on the receiving end. No thanks. Bring on Google Drive or whatever.
 

MacDoc

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Just think we can be real pirates and hack the automatic vehicle control system and filter to our hearts content knowing google will watch out for us :D
 

Brian P

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What was the end result of all that foolishness with Toyotas anyway? Was it human error?

Combination of many factors with no single smoking gun.

Driver error is the most predominant one. Same situation Audi had. There are some elements of ergonomics (vehicle design) involved with regards to the position of the pedals relative to each other and to the centerline of the driver's seat. It's not really anything Toyota did - it's just that different vehicles have slightly different positioning, so if someone used to some other vehicle jumps in a Toyota then perhaps they could touch the wrong pedal. But the situation is the same in reverse - someone used to how Toyota has them could have a problem in some other vehicle. This is largely a red herring.

No question that there was some fraud going on, too, with people claiming "sudden acceleration" for situations that were their own darn fault and they knew it.

Floor mats ... If people use the wrong floor mats, they could get tangled in the pedals. If they use the floor mats specified by Toyota for the vehicle and attach them properly, it doesn't happen. Not Toyota's problem. User error.

Accelerator pedal sticking sensors ... there was a slight issue with these, fixed under recall. BUT ...

Inadequate driver education. People don't know what "neutral" on their automatic transmission shift lever is for.

There is one thing that came out of this which some people have been pointing out, and which Toyota DOES have an element of responsibility for, but they are far from the only ones at fault: Non-standard engine start/stop methods. In the old days (still true for every vehicle that I own), if something went wacky with the engine, you grab the ignition key and switch it to "off". But with the newfangled pushbutton starting and keyless operation, it is no longer readily apparent how to switch the engine off immediately in an emergency. Hold the button down 3 seconds? that's a looooong time when your car is accelerating towards the back of a transport truck. Press the button 3 times? same problem. The auto industry missed the boat here. If they wanted to use keyless ignition switches, they should have done it with a rotary selector switch having the same positions that a normal keyed switch has and installed in the same position in the vehicle, just with no key. If they wanted to use pushbutton starting, it should have been in conjunction with a normal keyed switch and an immediate big red "off" button separate from the "start" button ... just like your motorcycle has, and just like the race cars that they were trying to copy actually have.

I know the computer industry loves using the same button for "on" and "off" ... but it's a bad idea in any safety-critical application.
 

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