Got nailed: 45 over and unsafe passing, in Middlesex/London region | GTAMotorcycle.com

Got nailed: 45 over and unsafe passing, in Middlesex/London region

DJ-RK

Well-known member
Yesterday morning I got lit up and charged with doing 135 in a 90 zone, and for doing a pass on a 2-lane highway that was, of his opinion too close and warranted for a 2nd ticket for improper passing(which I disagree with).

This was in Middlesex (just outside of Grand Bend, where I was riding to for the 3rd day of the Racer5 track course I was taking this weekend, ironically), which has this falling under London court's jurisdiction. The cop was actually kinda cool, spoke to me in an understanding, non-condescending way (said he used to ride himself). Told me he was following me for a bit, and let me off of a failure to stop, and for racing/stunting (I was practicing my leans into turns on the way :glasses8::rolleyes:).

So, needless to say, I'll need to fight this in hopes of getting this reduced, at the very least. What are the chances of getting the speeding down to a minor and the unsafe passing dropped? How should I go about this? Should I contact a paralegal immediately and prior to doing anything, or should I do that at a certain point & time in the process/as needed? Will I need to find someone specifically located in London, or would I likely be able to find someone in the GTA (although I assume there would be additional cost involved in travel, so would it be less worthwhile to do this?). Anything else I should know, or any other tips/strategy?

In the worst case, all this sticks, what am I looking at in terms of the effect on my insurance? I know it will go up, but will it basically ruin my riding career (like 3-5 times the previous amount, or more)? Fortunately, my 1 year is up at the end of the month and I've already been sent the renewal quote last week... I was going to try to shop around to get a better rate after this weekend, but looks like I'll be going with what I already got and will be good for the next year, at least, and that'll eat a decent chunk of time out of the 3 years this will stay on my record.

I will greatly appreciate any help and advice given. Thanks, and sorry if some of this is covered elsewhere and/or common sense.
 
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hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Well I will address the last issue first. Insurance you can still shop around as they are concerned with convictions not charges, (they can't boost your rates or quote solely on charges). As for what it will do to your premium, if your convicted of both charges you will then have, two MINOR convictions, (speeding by MOST companies is either minor 0 - 49 over, or major 49+). Even your curretn insured depending upon their underwriting rules can drop you for two minor convictions.

As for getting a deal.. You have basically two routes. One hire a paralegal or lawyer immediately and see what they can get you, (Most will discuss your case in adavance for free and tell you what outcome they think they are likely to get for you). The second is to go to first attnedance meeting with the crown and see what they are offering, (you would still have the option of hiring legal representation after).

You should also immediately file for disclosure. This will get you the officers notes which presumably will say why he felt the unsafe passing charge was warranted.

Yesterday morning I got lit up and charged with doing 135 in a 90 zone, and for doing a pass on a 2-lane highway that was, of his opinion too close and warranted for a 2nd ticket for improper passing(which I disagree with).

This was in Middlesex (just outside of Grand Bend, where I was riding to for the 3rd day of the Racer5 track course I was taking this weekend, ironically), which has this falling under London court's jurisdiction. The cop was actually kinda cool, spoke to me in an understanding, non-condescending way (said he used to ride himself). Told me he was following me for a bit, and let me off of a failure to stop, and for racing/stunting (I was practicing my leans into turns on the way :glasses8::rolleyes:).

So, needless to say, I'll need to fight this in hopes of getting this reduced, at the very least. What are the chances of getting the speeding down to a minor and the unsafe passing dropped? How should I go about this? Should I contact a paralegal immediately and prior to doing anything, or should I do that at a certain point & time in the process/as needed? Will I need to find someone specifically located in London, or would I likely be able to find someone in the GTA (although I assume there would be additional cost involved in travel, so would it be less worthwhile to do this?). Anything else I should know, or any other tips/strategy?

In the worst case, all this sticks, what am I looking at in terms of the effect on my insurance? I know it will go up, but will it basically ruin my riding career (like 3-5 times the previous amount, or more)? Fortunately, my 1 year is up at the end of the month and I've already been sent the renewal quote last week... I was going to try to shop around to get a better rate after this weekend, but looks like I'll be going with what I already got and will be good for the next year, at least, and that'll eat a decent chunk of time out of the 3 years this will stay on my record.

I will greatly appreciate any help and advice given. Thanks, and sorry if some of this is covered elsewhere and/or common sense.
 

油井緋色

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Told me he was following me for a bit, and let me off of a failure to stop, and for racing/stunting (I was practicing my leans into turns on the way :glasses8::rolleyes:).
He was going to charge you for racing/stunting because you were hanging off? What a piece of ****.
 

Hyperion

Well-known member
I got my 149 dropped down to 29 over (major to a minor) just by going to early resolution. So it's doable.
Apparently tho, as the lady in the window told me , the is a box they can check to note that they already knocked down the speed, so that may be a factor, as my box wasn't marked.
 

hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
油井緋色;2324776 said:
He was going to charge you for racing/stunting because you were hanging off? What a piece of ****.
That wasn't what the officer said, (as per the OP), he said he "could have gotten him for "failure to stop", (obviously OP wasn't watching his mirrors). Plus the speed and the "unsafe passing", plus the ole "not being in the seat" all combined "could" have supported the s172 charge. The OP admits the officer was respectful, non-judgemental, and cool. From the way the OP described it, doesn't sound like the officer "threatened" him but was merely educating the rider as to what "could" have happened. I have said it many times I don't support s172, and in this case the officer did the appropriate thing.

If the OP felt this way about the interaction then perhaps so should we. But hey this GTAM and th FTP position is default for so many. When in fact the OP apparently treated the officer in the same fashion he was being treated and walked away, with not a perfect resolution but a MUCH better one than had he taken what seems would have been your approach. It is all attitude.
 

油井緋色

Well-known member
Site Supporter
If the OP felt this way about the interaction then perhaps so should we. But hey this GTAM and th FTP position is default for so many. When in fact the OP apparently treated the officer in the same fashion he was being treated and walked away, with not a perfect resolution but a MUCH better one than had he taken what seems would have been your approach. It is all attitude.
I used to have an under-tail license plate with a little wheel on the plate to prevent the swing arm's up and down movement from smashing the plate; the plate obviously also went up and down. 407 could clearly see the plate (as I was charged regularly when using it from Mississauga to Markham) and other riders/drivers told me they could see it clearly.

One day at KC, a random cop showed up and told me I was trying to obstruct my plate from the 407 and that the plate moving up and down wasn't needed because the swing arm doesn't move that much (there are clear marks where the wheel is due to movement from the swing arm). The cop was "respectfully" shoving their opinion down my throat and told me I had a warning in their systems now. I know what the law states about plate positioning (previous owner had the plate this way btw) and the law, despite what I said in the first paragraph, is not something I want to argue with a cop about; a cop once told me if they want to charge you with something, they will find something to charge you with. Just smile, apologize, and pretend to be friendly instead =)
 

DJ-RK

Well-known member
I got my 149 dropped down to 29 over (major to a minor) just by going to early resolution. So it's doable.
Apparently tho, as the lady in the window told me , the is a box they can check to note that they already knocked down the speed, so that may be a factor, as my box wasn't marked.
So I called up Forch today, as per glowing recommendations I've seen elsewhere on the site (which seem to be warranted from the interaction I just had with him because he took the time to go into a fair bit of detail despite giving me a referral to another service and also giving me info towards handling this without retaining. Quite the professional courtesy.), and he indicated that going for this might be the best approach from a cost effectiveness standpoint. I'm just worried that if I do go this route, and they decide to not be merciful that I'm effectively screwing myself with a guilty plea. This is my first offense, and the officer did not reduce the speed at all. Here's the kicker: I've only got my M2, so Forch told me if I get convicted of the 4 point offense it's a 30 day suspension (although I can't seem to find information to support this. I've only found that if I accumulate 6-8 points that I will need to attend a meeting to discuss my conduct and which may result in suspension. Can anyone attest to any of this?), so again, I'm concerned with rolling the dice on this one.

From the way the OP described it, doesn't sound like the officer "threatened" him but was merely educating the rider as to what "could" have happened.
Yes, that's exactly how he laid it out to me. Asked if I knew what it was, and the implications of it. I really wasn't expecting it to come up in the discussion, though, so in hindsight it does almost feel like he was flashing a bit of authority on the matter... or at the very least, since he was "letting me off" of it, it was supposed to give me a reason to be grateful he was 'only' giving me the full speeding and improper passing tickets. He said he was "giving me a break and just a bit of a roadside lesson," but if that were the case then he would have at least reduced the speeding to 29, if not dropping the questionable improper passing ticket... but eh, I'm so 'grateful' he didn't go for the ambiguous gold and screw me with a 172 (as you can tell from my sarcasm, I'm starting to have mixed emotions towards the ordeal now).

So one question I have at this point is should I be sending in my option response for both tickets in the same envelope so they are handled together, or do I need to send them in separately?

Another question is since he indicated he was following me for a while, wouldn't that potentially fall into the area where police officers are not supposed to give pursuit to people fleeing on motorcycles? (not that I was fleeing, but he was obviously still pursuing)
 

Scuba Steve

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Yup 30 over is a 30 day suspension if you only have a m2 might want to fight that.
From the mto website

*Dealing with particular situations

Novice driver escalating sanctions

Escalating sanctions for novice drivers would apply if any of the following occurrences have taken place within a five-year period:

Any combination of repeat violations of G1/G2/M1/M2 restrictionsConvictions for individual*HTA*offences carrying four or more demerit pointsCourt-ordered licence suspensions for*HTA*convictions that would have otherwise resulted in four or more demerit points.

Escalating sanctions for hybrid drivers would apply if there is any combination of repeat violations of their novice licence (G1/G2/M1/M2) conditions within a five-year period.

The penalties under escalating sanctions for novice and hybrid drivers are:

30-day licence suspension for the first occurrence90-day licence suspension for the second occurrenceLicence cancellation and a requirement to re-apply for a G1/M1 after the third occurrence. Any fees paid, credit received for time spent in the program or BDE credit would be forfeited when the licence is cancelled. Please note that in the case of a hybrid driver, only the novice-class licence is cancelled on the third occasion; their full-class licence is maintained.

A reinstatement fee is also imposed on first- and second-occurrence drivers.

Note:*Escalating sanctions do not apply in situations where a driver is convicted of an offence resulting in four or more demerit points (or receives a court-ordered suspension for an offence that would have resulted in four or more demerit points) and has one of the following hybrid licence combinations:

(a) A G1 or G2 with a Class M licence

(b) An M1 or M2 with a Class A, B, C, D, E, F or G licence

Forfeited Fees:

If you prepaid any examination fees and are convicted for a third occurrence under escalating sanctions all your pre-paid fees will be lost. You will be required to pay all fees once you re-enter into the GLS program.

Note:*If you are a novice driver and are convicted of violating any novice condition, an offence that is associated with 4 or more demerit points or receive a court-ordered suspension for an offence that would have resulted in 4 or more demerit points, you will receive the appropriate penalty and novice driver escalating sanction licence suspension. However, the demerit points will be recorded as zero on your record, and will not be counted towards the accumulated demerit point system.




sent from a device using a program
 
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Joe Bass

*probably eating right now*
Site Supporter
OP, just my opinion: Go back to your thinking of the original post. Cop was treating you respectfully, as you were to him. Don't let your emotions get the better of you, it may impair any future interactions with the police.
Good luck with the tickets.
 

DJ-RK

Well-known member
Thanks Scuba Steve for providing that info, helps keep things in perspective and makes the choice that much clearer, and good advice Joe Bass. Letting the emotions get the best of me makes it easy to warp my perception on who is at fault in the situation. And at the very least, yeah, I'm grateful that the cop didn't make me feel like a P.O.S. in the situation and seemed equally concerned about my safety as he was at enforcing the law.

I hope I don't get laughed off the board for asking, but one of my friends suggested I go with X-Coppers. Anyone know if they are any good? I'm thinking they would probably be big/coordinated enough that it would be easy to arrange them to manage the case and any appearances without the costs running up for the travel... or would I just be better going with the paralegal in London that I was referred to by Forch?
 

Joe Bass

*probably eating right now*
Site Supporter
Can't comment on xcopper, or Forch, but he seems to have given you good advice, may be best to stick with his recommendations. Also, local paralegals sometimes have a good rapport with the courts/ JP's.
 

nfq

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Having used Forch personally, I would go with his referral over xcoppers. Good luck.
 

hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
OP great decision to stay with the positive thoughts on the interaction. I am sure, (from personal experience), the officer was just trying to educate you on the potential outcomes and that he was choosing to go with the least damaging for you. Given you are an M2 holder had he gone with the s172, then your riding career would have ended for all intents and purposes right there. But as you said he seemed concerned for your safety which is always a positive. Hopefully you take awy a valuable lesson, there are places and times to practice the Racer5 moves, and public roads isn't one of them. Kudos to you that you are a concenious young person and are taking the course as you care about your safety too.

Personnally, I would take the recommendation Forch gave you over excopper ANYDAY. I don't work for either and havent needed either services, BUT I did speak to Forch on behalf of a friend and he is as you described straight up and forthcoming with info, (even if he knows your not using his services). I have found, (when I used to be involved in the court workings), that excopper tends to be a "cookie cutter" scenario and they go for the quickest and easiest, (not always the best for you), outcome they can obtain. They reply on the money they spend on advertaising for clients. Whereas most paralegals rely upon word of mouth referrals and as such they try their best to get positive results. Positive results = more referrals.
 

DJ-RK

Well-known member
So, can anyone answer the question on whether it's ok for me to send both tickets in (with option 3 filled out) in the same envelope (so they are hopefully processed/scheduled together) or if it's necessary for me to mail them in separate envelopes?
 

hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Sorry yes they can be mailed in the same envelope.

So, can anyone answer the question on whether it's ok for me to send both tickets in (with option 3 filled out) in the same envelope (so they are hopefully processed/scheduled together) or if it's necessary for me to mail them in separate envelopes?
 

DJ-RK

Well-known member
Thanks. And how will the proceedings go. Will they both be combined and handled together at the same hearings, or will they be treated as 2 separate offenses with 2 separate trials (potentially on different dates/times) etc?
 
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hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Thanks. And how will the proceedings go. Will they both be combined and handled together at the same hearings, or will they be treated as 2 separate offenses with 2 separate trials (potentially on different dates/times) etc?
No they are offences of the same incident so they will be handled together. Expect the crown at first attendance, "may" offer a "deal" in exchange for a guilty plea on one of the offences the other will go away.
 

DJ-RK

Well-known member
No they are offences of the same incident so they will be handled together. Expect the crown at first attendance, "may" offer a "deal" in exchange for a guilty plea on one of the offences the other will go away.
Great. Honestly, I'll be over the moon if the crown were to offer me such a deal. For me a win would be to walk away with one minor with as little back and forth as possible. I mailed in my notice to request a trial yesterday, and I'm starting to regret not sending it registered. Do they provide a confirmation phone call when they receive it (hence them asking for a phone # on the back of the ticket)?
 

hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Great. Honestly, I'll be over the moon if the crown were to offer me such a deal. For me a win would be to walk away with one minor with as little back and forth as possible. I mailed in my notice to request a trial yesterday, and I'm starting to regret not sending it registered. Do they provide a confirmation phone call when they receive it (hence them asking for a phone # on the back of the ticket)?
No phone call when they recieve it, otherwise they would spend all day on the phone rather than processing..lol. You can always try calling them, in about 7 - 10 days to see if it has been processed.
 

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