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Boeing 737 Max 8

The Eng-Tips discussion is still going strong: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5] - Engineering Failures & Disasters - Eng-Tips

The post timestamped 19 Sep 19 08:50 contains an ominous finding.

These planes are not getting back in the air for a long time.
Ouch. I knew this was going to be bad once the spotlight was shone on the sway the bean counters had over engineers. Boeing continuing to say they are going to be back in the air soon either means they still don't get it or they are desperate to get it flying so the review stops before they find a terminal flaw that permanently kills the max.
 
Instead of getting the necessary clearance by moving the engineer forward, they should just make the engines oval.

Making the cowls oval won't help the fact that the engine itself still needs to be round. Remember everything that's inside amounts to a collection of vary rapidly rotating fans - you can't just make a fan blade oval, much less one that spins at 10,000RPM.

If they get much larger they are going to have to flip them back onto the top of the wings where they were in the old days. I've seen radials and turboprops mounted high, but never a turbofan. I wonder if there is a technical block or just packaging. More power=dive would not be an ideal handling characteristic though. The props let you move the centre of effort much closer to the wing.

Some of the reasons it's not more commonplace is more simple reasons such as maintenance (a hanging engine is way easier and less risky to re-and-re vs an overhead engine), simple physics on how strong the pylon it's attached to needs to be (try balancing a watermelon vertically on a ruler, now try hanging it by it instead), noise (the wing blocks a lot of the engine noise from the cabin/passengers when mounted underneath), safety (an engine that suffers a catastrophic uncontained failure is less likely to blow chunks into people when under vs over the wing), etc etc etc.

Three solutions for larger engines and ground clearances is...

1/ Use 4 smaller engines instead of 2 massive ones...but airlines don't like more of something that's very expensive. Each engine = extra money in maintenance, repairs, end-of-life replacement, etc etc etc.

2/ Increased use of the tri-jet design where there's 2 slightly smaller engines on the wing and 1 on the tail, IE the MD11. But we come back to the same argument as #1 above - airlines like LESS engines, not more. There's also structural concerns there as well since the airframe needs to be heavier to support that tail mounted engine, not to mention all the additional weight of the engine and it's gear itself. Weight = less stuff inside the plane = less profit. It also uses more fuel = less profit. I'm sure everyone sees where this is all going.

3/ Make the landing gear longer. A famous example of this was the Constellation. One of the things it was famous for it's "stilt" landing gear and resulting appearance, and it was solely to accommodate the required ground clearance for it's massive propellers it needed for it's size.

http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F180831191442-super-constellation-1.jpg


It's equally famous triple tail design, it was also a requirement (because of the landing gear) so that the plane would actually fit inside the maintenance hangers of the day - a traditional single or even double vertical stabilizer would have been too tall....yet 1 (or even 2) of the maximum allowable height of the day wouldn't have provided adequate rudder authority for such a large airliner of it's day.

180831191629-super-constellation-3.jpg


But, these are all compromises that worked because money was of little consequence in that era - nobody cared that 3 tails or super spindly landing gear that was prone to damage and stress issues meant a drastically higher level of maintenance was required, or that 4 engines worked better than 2 in those days because it allowed airlines to boast about their speed they could move their passengers. They didn't care they burned a crap ton more fuel, either....money wasn't tight and profits were not made on the back of pennies split in 2 like they are today.
 
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Taking a 777 out west next week to help ferry a 180 back. Which one's safer? I kid, Boeing did a good job with the 777.
 
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If you get an opportunity, watch the Boeing 747 documentary called “Jumbo: The Plane that Changed the World”.


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Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5] - Engineering Failures & Disasters - Eng-Tips (See reply of 27 Sep 2019)

It has become apparent that the original simulator testing of the automated trim system was based on a single fault being presented directly to the pilot which pointed directly to the trim controls. No problem, the pilot could take the "immediate and appropriate corrective action" of switching off the trim motors and continue on flying.

What was NOT simulated was the real world outcome of a failure of the AoA sensor - which caused multiple systems in the plane to act up, leading to multiple faults being presented and the stall-warning stick shaker being activated. This results in a real world situation where the pilot doesn't actually know what's causing the underlying problem. It's not readily apparent that the correct course of action to a failure of the AoA sensor (which doesn't present a clear unambiguous single alarm warning to the pilot) is to switch off automated trim. Thus, by the time the pilots figure this out - IF they figure it out before the plane crashes - the motorized trim has gone so far out of whack that recovery at a minimum takes much longer and may not even be physically possible (because the manual trim adjustment takes considerable force to actuate, more than human capability in at least some circumstances).

Now NTSB is requiring safety assessments to consider the impact of multiple alarms.

These planes are not getting back in the air for a long time ...
 
Well, well. Seems that the USA is fixing to apply significant tariffs to billions of US$ worth of imports from the EU.

Don't be surprised if the EASA does not accept the findings of the FAA and are sticklers about fixing the assortment of technical issues that this investigation has turned up, including revoking all grandfathering of the approval of systems dating back to prior aircraft generations if there has been the slightest modification whatsoever, and insisting on proper training of pilots in simulators to cover all modifications to safety systems and explicitly covering whatever they end up proposing to do with the AoA sensors and MCAS. This will, of course, be completely independent and unconnected with the way the USA is treating the EU with respect to tariffs, as it should be. The FAA in turn will look really bad if they allow the 737max to fly and the EASA won't (and this would restrict the 737max to flights within the USA).

These planes are not getting back in the air for a long time!
 
Taking a 777 out west next week to help ferry a 180 back. Which one's safer? I kid, Boeing did a good job with the 777.

yep, I like getting on them

and my absolute favourite for long hauls is a 747
tons of room, lots of lavs
and they're like an ocean liner
turbulence doesn't move them around much
 
yep, I like getting on them

and my absolute favourite for long hauls is a 747
tons of room, lots of lavs
and they're like an ocean liner
turbulence doesn't move them around much
Have you tried a 787? Premium economy is a big step up in comfort for a small step up in price and there are windows in the bathroom.
 
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only been on a Dreamliner once or twice
yes, very nice plane
feels like a 747 when you're boarding
rides like it too

memorable trip on one was into Afghan via Dubai
entire first class cabin to myself
4 flight attendants to make sure my scotch stayed topped up

currently I'm back in coach with AC domestic :(
 
Airbus had a problem as well. Different reasons and maybe not as shady but while a computerized aircraft is safer than a Cessna 152 the lack of control over one's destiny is scary.

Long but interesting

 
Pretty damning report out today from panel commissioned by FAA. It says in part "Investigators recommended the FAA confirm the MAX's compliance with regulations regarding the plane’s flight guidance system, flight manual and stall demonstration". That sounds like a lot of work on its' own, not to mention the additional issues of training and reduced physical redundancy brought up by Brian p.
 
It keeps getting worse. Now it turns out that the excessive control force required to manually trim the plane after powered trim sends it out of whack, was not accurately represented in the one and only simulator that included MCAS. So, easy to recover in the sim. Physically cannot do it in real life.
 
In a related ^*&^show. Xtra Aerospace (the company that refurbished the lionair AoA sensor) has had their license to repair revoked by the FAA and is out of business.

The FAA release says in part "from November 2009 until May 2019, Xtra failed to complete and retain records . . . did not substantiate that it had adequate facilities, tools, test equipment, technical publications, and trained and qualified employees." So another part of the FAA gong show. They issue licenses to allow you to repair safety critical parts and then do no meaningful audit/inspection for at least a decade to ensure you are complying with your license.

Muelenberg is also eating crap in front of the senate today. Admitting that their safety assessments fell short while maintaining it was rogue employees and not part of the culture. I think he is trying to avoid a criminal conviction at this point (even if he has enough money that he would get off easy).
 
My understanding was the 737 designation was due to ("wanted because" might be a better term) airline pilots only holding (by law) one "type" rating at a time (they can only fly one airplane "model" and to change to another they need to be retrained on the new type, losing the old one). My understanding is sub versions are allowed to hold the same type certificate as long as they are not "too different"..

By calling this basically heavily modified/new plane a 737 the airline pilots do not need to get a new type rating (check) and not only that can move between old versions and this one. This is lucrative for Boeing if they are selling the new plane to airlines that already fly the old 737, it can be a mixed fleet and phased in. All that was required was the tablet training...

AC as an example does not have any old 737 in the fleet. So apparently (lots of rumors here) they either have permission to fly one max (pilots only) or have leased an old 737 to keep pilots current, flying it out of Hamilton (circuits). A pilot friend that flies from Hamilton has seen the AC 737 flying around.

A lot of this MCAS, etc. shenanigans IMO were about making this new plane with bigger relocated engines etc. fly like the old one just to keep it within the type rating. Without it, they lose their advantage selling to operators currently flying the old 737 versions. Lots of other short cuts apparently, but IMO the big problem, this is no classic 737!
 
My understanding was the 737 designation was due to ("wanted because" might be a better term) airline pilots only holding (by law) one "type" rating at a time (they can only fly one airplane "model" and to change to another they need to be retrained on the new type, losing the old one). My understanding is sub versions are allowed to hold the same type certificate as long as they are not "too different"..

By calling this basically heavily modified/new plane a 737 the airline pilots do not need to get a new type rating (check) and not only that can move between old versions and this one. This is lucrative for Boeing if they are selling the new plane to airlines that already fly the old 737, it can be a mixed fleet and phased in. All that was required was the tablet training...

AC as an example does not have any old 737 in the fleet. So apparently (lots of rumors here) they either have permission to fly one max (pilots only) or have leased an old 737 to keep pilots current, flying it out of Hamilton (circuits). A pilot friend that flies from Hamilton has seen the AC 737 flying around.

A lot of this MCAS, etc. shenanigans IMO were about making this new plane with bigger relocated engines etc. fly like the old one just to keep it within the type rating. Without it, they lose their advantage selling to operators currently flying the old 737 versions. Lots of other short cuts apparently, but IMO the big problem, this is no classic 737!
You pretty much nailed the cause. For an airline like southwest, they only fly one "type" of plane. This allows them to put any pilot in any plane which is a great operational advantage.

That sounds exactly like the type of scheme a few rogue employees would come up with, not a management driven decision. /sarcasm
 
Now there's speculation that if approval isn't granted by January, Boeing may start getting into financial difficulties, which has all sorts of further ramifications. Seems that Transport Canada wants MCAS removed rather than fixed. Except then the plane's native airframe doesn't produce compliant responses to its controls.

Disclaimer: I don't own Boeing stock and never have.
 
Now there's speculation that if approval isn't granted by January, Boeing may start getting into financial difficulties, which has all sorts of further ramifications. Seems that Transport Canada wants MCAS removed rather than fixed. Except then the plane's native airframe doesn't produce compliant responses to its controls.

Disclaimer: I don't own Boeing stock and never have.

I assume Boeing is sectioned so that if the 737 division folds the military part keeps on bombing along.

If the Max 8 is scrapped how long before a properly designed aircraft will start carrying passengers? Have sketches already been drawn up for months?
 
If the Max 8 is scrapped how long before a properly designed aircraft will start carrying passengers? Have sketches already been drawn up for months?
That's an interesting question. What are the odds that the new designed from scratch plane incorporates similar software solutions to hardware problems like MCAS? If MCAS was declared unacceptable, they may have to throw out a significant portion of the already designed plane setting them back years.
 
That's an interesting question. What are the odds that the new designed from scratch plane incorporates similar software solutions to hardware problems like MCAS? If MCAS was declared unacceptable, they may have to throw out a significant portion of the already designed plane setting them back years.

My dinosaur brain keeps thinking about things being intrinsically stable. Boats that float right side up, cars that tend to go straight and airplanes with dihedral that keeps them from doing unplanned aerobatics. Basically planes capable of flying without a computer if needed.
 

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