I'm about to start rebuilding an Ariel Square Four and one of the issues I've always had with this bike is premature camshaft and cam follower wear. Has anyone had any experience with the Parkerizing process? From what I've read about it, it could eliminate this problem. I'm not talking about just cam scuffing but the lobes actually seam to wear prematurally.
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Parkerizing
- Thread starter nornet
- Start date
Man have you come to the wrong forum My guess is 90% of the members have no clue what a square four is.
I would try the CVMG guys or the VRRA http://www.vrra.ca/board/
I would try the CVMG guys or the VRRA http://www.vrra.ca/board/
You can try here: Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Group - some of them will also be at the Toronto show on the weekend
http://www.cvmg.on.ca/Default.aspx?pageId=58024
http://www.cvmg.on.ca/Default.aspx?pageId=58024
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Closer to 99.9% of GTAM members never having heard of an Ariel Square Four. Might as well post a question about a Scott Flying Squirrel while you're at it. I call Troll, a rather original Troll nonetheless. Or if you are sincere, you are so in the wrong place.
I'm pretty familiar with Parkerising, its used a lot in the gunsmithing business and was one of the original phosphating metal treatments to prevent (slow down) wear. Worked well in automatic weapons.
you can do it at home with a propane burner and a pyrex baking dish, the chemicals are common and very caustic and the fumes are toxic. Enjoy.
It would probably work for your engine cams but there are also a lot of coatings available you can have applied. Contact a performance engine shop in your area and ask.
I'm part of the 1% around here, your Ariel should not be a daily driver IMHO and wearing out it should be a sunday ride. I'll trade you for a honda XL185, its much easier to work on.......
you can do it at home with a propane burner and a pyrex baking dish, the chemicals are common and very caustic and the fumes are toxic. Enjoy.
It would probably work for your engine cams but there are also a lot of coatings available you can have applied. Contact a performance engine shop in your area and ask.
I'm part of the 1% around here, your Ariel should not be a daily driver IMHO and wearing out it should be a sunday ride. I'll trade you for a honda XL185, its much easier to work on.......
You lose, 1957 Ariel Square Four Mark II. Why is this in the wrong place, I thought this was a technical forum. It doesn't matter what the bike is, I was asking about a metal treatment process.
Thanks but I'll have to pass on the Honda (I've got a CB500).
I'll check around some performance shops. I've read a lot about immersion times etc as that seems to affect the hardness of the skin. It seems to be fairly strightforward for cosmetic applications but other are a little less clear. There is no information that I can find on whether you use it on hardened metal. I'm going to use this Square Four for one last trip to the east coast before retiring it. Thanks to the others who pointed out the Vintage Owner Association.
That was my first thought but you need to have the existing cam template for the grinding machine and the cost I was getting on making that was very high as it was a one off item.
Not trying to be a smarta$$ but just pointing out that you would likely get better info from the vintage clubs. I know nothing about Parkerizing, been working on bikes for 30 years, racing for 20 of them and even work in the aerospace industry ironically as a heattreater. Now if you want to design a custom map for your busa I can hook ya up.
I know what a square four is (always thought it was a goofy ill-concieved design) however very interesting machine. I wont pretend to be able to offer useful information on rebuilding one. Would love to see it when you get it done though.
Try posting your question over here
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/index.php
While not a motorcycle forum, it's arguably the best resource for machining/manufacturing related info. There are also alot of motorcycle enthusiasts over there too, and most would be interested in hearing about/lending a hand with the rebuilding of a classic. Post in the manufacturing resource forum too, and you might get some competetive quotes on hardfacing, and regrinding the cam. Never know, it's worth a shot.
Tremendous site, thanks. I guess I confused the issue by mentioning the Square Four. Should have left it at a metal treatment. Not to worry, there will be pics when I,m done (actually I should post some pre rebuild (it's not really a restoration)
First which model and engine? I assume it’s the G4MII since it’s a 57
The camshaft its self typically holds up well. I still have the original in my 59 and back in the day these engines were supposed to do up to 40k miles before a topend rebuild.
The camshaft has a ball bearing at the driven end and a bronze bush at the remote end. I’d replace the ball bearings, any bearing shop will be able to order it and replace the bronze bush with Delrin, blue Nylatrol GSM or Nyliol. If the bush gets sloppy it leads to a lot of wear.
The followers/push rods are made from some kind of an alloy called Duralumin. I was told that this had a case hardening process and coating applied - kind of similar to titanium valves on modern engines – and when this wears it caused problems but that should not wear the lobes.
You can also check with Fireball Coatings and see if they can do a Moly coating on the camshaft for you instead http://www.fireballcoatings.com
I have also had good success running oils for diesel engines like RotellaT.
PM me with your email address and I’ll send you a great PDF on the engine specs, tolerances and rebuild procedures.
The camshaft its self typically holds up well. I still have the original in my 59 and back in the day these engines were supposed to do up to 40k miles before a topend rebuild.
The camshaft has a ball bearing at the driven end and a bronze bush at the remote end. I’d replace the ball bearings, any bearing shop will be able to order it and replace the bronze bush with Delrin, blue Nylatrol GSM or Nyliol. If the bush gets sloppy it leads to a lot of wear.
The followers/push rods are made from some kind of an alloy called Duralumin. I was told that this had a case hardening process and coating applied - kind of similar to titanium valves on modern engines – and when this wears it caused problems but that should not wear the lobes.
You can also check with Fireball Coatings and see if they can do a Moly coating on the camshaft for you instead http://www.fireballcoatings.com
I have also had good success running oils for diesel engines like RotellaT.
PM me with your email address and I’ll send you a great PDF on the engine specs, tolerances and rebuild procedures.
Absolutly you can use it on hardened metals, it was hugely popular with the US army for gun parts, rifle bolts and recievers are about as hard as you'll find.
It give an excellent wear surface and is very oil friendly, hence the prefence for gunmakers, it was much superior to blueing.
That said, there are a lot of engine coatings check this article
www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0612_engine_coatings
please dont do anything that may affect the historical/resale value of the ariel. I have a soft spot for that stuff.
I'm going for a beer later with an engineer that designs heattreatment ovens for aerospace . He tells me the anti friction/ corrosion coatings do work.
It give an excellent wear surface and is very oil friendly, hence the prefence for gunmakers, it was much superior to blueing.
That said, there are a lot of engine coatings check this article
www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0612_engine_coatings
please dont do anything that may affect the historical/resale value of the ariel. I have a soft spot for that stuff.
I'm going for a beer later with an engineer that designs heattreatment ovens for aerospace . He tells me the anti friction/ corrosion coatings do work.
I never expected to get this quality of information. Yes it's Mark II alloy head. I've contacted Draganfly in the UK who I've been using for BSA and Ariel spares since the 60s. So far no answer from them and I somehow doubt whether they will respond to my technical questions. The bike has about 25k miles on it and the cam and followers were replaced at the 15k mark and need to be replaced again. I'm almost certain the bearing and bushing were not replaced. I've hear from some maintenance mechanics that they run diesel oil in their gas engines because there are fewer detergents in them. Is this what you were getting at especially with an engine without a filter? Thanks for the info. PM sent.
There you go Nornet,
Even though the mention of a Squariel had them distracted at first you managed to get what you need (apparenttly).
I find this technical board is quite helpful even though it tends towards the newer stuff.
The other forums here seam to often be of the "whats the loudest pipe" or "which color is fastest" variety.
Even though the mention of a Squariel had them distracted at first you managed to get what you need (apparenttly).
I find this technical board is quite helpful even though it tends towards the newer stuff.
The other forums here seam to often be of the "whats the loudest pipe" or "which color is fastest" variety.
Glad to post some pics shortly when I get it out from the garage. There are a lot more pics here http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike Directories/Ariel Bikes/Ariel index.htm
BTW There is a 1915 (?) Harley at the show that looks like it just came out of the showroom.
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Tripletrouble
Well-known member
Quirky design eh! I guess Suzuki thought that too when they designed their Gamma 500 Square four. I would suggest you contact Ken Rosevear from Utopia (near Barrie), Ontario as he does great work and knows tons about Square fours.
This is the best thread that I've read since the board was created.
There is a company called Bodycote, I think they have a metal treating facility in Guelph. They may be familiar with it.
I've seen a number of Square Fours over the years. The Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Rally is every Father's Day weekend in Paris, ON. Beautiful riding area.
There is a company called Bodycote, I think they have a metal treating facility in Guelph. They may be familiar with it.
I've seen a number of Square Fours over the years. The Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Rally is every Father's Day weekend in Paris, ON. Beautiful riding area.
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