Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?



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Thread: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

  1. #1

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    Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

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    I'm guessing this might be one of the largest concentrations of motorcyclists I the province -- some 30,000+ email addresses that have some interest in motorcycling. It might make sense for a few of us to lead an effort to summarize our concerns and recommendations related to motorcycle insurance in Ontario.

    We currently pay the highest rates in North America and also have a system that allows insurance companies to dictate rates.

    Perhaps we should gather a few volunteers to create a reasonable set of concerns and recommendations. I can's see anyone doing it for us.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________
    Present: FJR 1300, DL650XT XV920R, GL1000, TR25W
    Past: GSXR1300, M50, EX250R, GL1500, XV250, TS200R, TW200, XV1100, CB750SS, H2 MIV, Rupp Roadster, MX125, MX250, DT400

  2. #2

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Sounds like a great idea I vote for you

  3. #3

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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    Sounds like a great idea I vote for you
    I don't mind taking the lead, I'm looking for a way to make a show of force.

    Step 1. Identify some reasonable issues and concerns

    Step 2. Drive some consensus on recommendations

    Step 3. Consolidate the voice so they know it's not just a handful of grumps

    Influencing politicians isn't easy, you have to organize your voice into a block to can punch above your weight. I think the numbers are here... do we have the interest and support?Lets start by gathering concerns. If we hit 4 pages of responses, we can narrow things down and focus. Let me start with a few of my concerns.

    1) Initial cost for new riders hurts the interest group. Possible solution: institute a fair price program for new riders on 250cc and down bikes.

    2) Multi-bike policies are outrageously expensive. Possible solutions: Allow bike owners to buy plate insurance - one plate multiple bikes -- pay the rate for the highest rated bike.

    3) Real risk rates. Possible Solutions: Insurers or their lobby releases actuarial data used to set rates.Any more ideas?
    Last edited by Mad Mike; 01-10-2019 at 08:00 PM.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________
    Present: FJR 1300, DL650XT XV920R, GL1000, TR25W
    Past: GSXR1300, M50, EX250R, GL1500, XV250, TS200R, TW200, XV1100, CB750SS, H2 MIV, Rupp Roadster, MX125, MX250, DT400

  4. #4
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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    The rates are set to one persons risk factor. i.e. age, marital status, where you reside, your driving history etc. The problem I have is rates creeping up EVERY year even though your personal risk factor has not changed.

  5. #5

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Solo rider rates: If I pull my rear pegs and hang them on the garage wall, I should be getting a serious reduction on rates seeing as I just reduced the potential payouts by 50% as well as improved my ability to maneuver the motorcycle and far better avoid an accident.

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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mike View Post

    2) Multi-bike policies are outrageously expensive. Possible solutions: Allow bike owners to buy plate insurance - one plate multiple bikes -- pay the rate for the highest rated bike.
    I don't think that could ever happen, unless you had 2 or 3 bikes on the policy. Each bike would have to be on the policy to make sure you are riding a certified bike.
    You wouldn't be able to just put the plate on any bike.

    Years ago you only paid $150 a year for a second or third bike. They understood that you could only ride one bike at a time.
    I think that too many people were allowing others to ride their bike, friends, brothers, their older children...
    If they could do it in a way where "only you" could be riding the bikes. If your brother/friend gets pulled over, they get charged with no insurance.

  7. #7

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaatu View Post
    I don't think that could ever happen, unless you had 2 or 3 bikes on the policy. Each bike would have to be on the policy to make sure you are riding a certified bike.
    You wouldn't be able to just put the plate on any bike.

    Years ago you only paid $150 a year for a second or third bike. They understood that you could only ride one bike at a time.
    I think that too many people were allowing others to ride their bike, friends, brothers, their older children...
    If they could do it in a way where "only you" could be riding the bikes. If your brother/friend gets pulled over, they get charged with no insurance.
    Then require the driver license to carry the liability portion and everything else is applied to the vehicle.

  8. #8

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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    Then require the driver license to carry the liability portion and everything else is applied to the vehicle.
    There is no reason insurance companies can't do this. The ON and federal gov'ts have permitted insurers to operate as a cartel. When the group are guaranteed profits through mandatory products, collaberative pricing, and market protections -- they have little incentive to compete or cot costs.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________
    Present: FJR 1300, DL650XT XV920R, GL1000, TR25W
    Past: GSXR1300, M50, EX250R, GL1500, XV250, TS200R, TW200, XV1100, CB750SS, H2 MIV, Rupp Roadster, MX125, MX250, DT400

  9. #9
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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    I've mentioned it here before
    seems I'm the only one that notices
    mandatory accident benefits are the problem

    this is the greatest area for fraud in Ontario
    scammers, lawyers and doctors all in cahoots on the scam

    looking at my bike policy now
    $2M liability premium costs me $116
    basic accident benefits - the mandatory part - costs me $573

    I already pay for health care
    and have extended coverage through my group policy
    I don't need/want to pay for redundant coverage on my auto policies

    accident benefits should be optional

  10. #10

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    The government and insurance companies will have heard anything we can dream up before. They are for-profit businesses operating in a climate rife with fraud and people who make their living milking insurance payouts.

    Physicians, chiros, therapists, rehab clinics, lawyers and even the government all have their hands in the til. Government doesn't seem to care and insurers just up their rates to maintain their profit margins.

    Don't complain to the companies; the argument will fall on deaf ears. Complaining the government is a waste of time. Even the courts have decided that insurers are allowed to discriminate on the basis of gender. There is no winning.

    I don't think there is a fix to this problem here. It's too late. The system is too corrupt and too self-serving. The options seem to be giving up the endeavor and finding a new hobby, sucking it up and paying or moving out of the province to a jurisdiction where things are different.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud enough to hear?

    Agreed that it is well known that Ontario pays some of the highest motorcycle insurance rates in the world, especially when you consider we are already covered for medical by the province. A major motorcycle manufacturer looked into getting group coverage for customers who buy their bikes. But after 2 years after trying with their worldwide corporate insurance company, they got little to no cooperation from their insurance company. Why? Because insurers don't want or need to shoot themselves in the foot, so don't need to do anything and still continue to charge inflated premiums from the riding public. Ontario is such a small market that those that play in it can virtually price fix, especially now that State Farm is gone and who did not play by the same underwriting rules as the rest. I really miss State Farm.
    Last edited by HarleyHare; 01-11-2019 at 12:13 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud enough to hear?

    Manitoba did it and market size is irrelevant.

    Australia does it ...basic liability goes with your sticker renewal.
    For instance my liability for the KLR for solo seat is $260 a year - that's public insurance.

    I can then buy additiona insurance if I wish from private insurers ...I don't.

    Only the gov can make changes.
    Only the NDP would make it a campaign plank.

    Suck it up princesses
    Last edited by MacDoc; 01-11-2019 at 01:57 AM.

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  13. #13
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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfin View Post
    The government and insurance companies will have heard anything we can dream up before. They are for-profit businesses operating in a climate rife with fraud and people who make their living milking insurance payouts.

    Physicians, chiros, therapists, rehab clinics, lawyers and even the government all have their hands in the til. Government doesn't seem to care and insurers just up their rates to maintain their profit margins.

    Don't complain to the companies; the argument will fall on deaf ears. Complaining the government is a waste of time. Even the courts have decided that insurers are allowed to discriminate on the basis of gender. There is no winning.

    I don't think there is a fix to this problem here. It's too late. The system is too corrupt and too self-serving. The options seem to be giving up the endeavor and finding a new hobby, sucking it up and paying or moving out of the province to a jurisdiction where things are different.
    ... when you see the insurance bureau representative on the news all happy and upbeat and glowing with the "changes coming" ....you know we're ALL gonna get screwed. Big mistake for us allowing a conservative majority.

    Using the not withstanding clause ? Ford is truly nuts. Even at the bush/trump level nuts! Transit mess? we save money lol.
    Expect to get stopped and harrassed when you ride or drive within 100m of a beer store; or maybe just because you ride a bike; Makes no difference because cops can now arbitrarily pull you over for no reason. Absolutely nuts. This is very very reminiscent of hitlers nazi's powers. We need to start supporting another political party for influence and to prevent a political party from ever having a majority license to dictate again; Im guessing germany has at least four, five, or more political parties now represented in parliament. Here, people just keep voting liberal and conservative. Both parties are corrupt and self serving- we know that, so why do we keep voting for them?

    WE have the right to vote - but no one to vote for. That is the major problem... Lets get the ndp, green party, and others influence into parliament. I vote, but not for any liberal or neo nazi conservative.
    Last edited by boyoboy; 01-11-2019 at 09:47 AM.
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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    I agree in principle that a focused effort to communicate concerns might be of value, but it is very much an uphill battle here in Ontario with systemic claims fraud, milking of claims by some and a very well connected self serving insurance industry.

    Any relief we've seen in rates has come from a reduction in coverage, not a real price reduction. When someone tells you that you have "more choice" that just means they've stripped out coverage and lowered cost, but if you have to buy back this coverage you'll find your total cost is more...........

    I'd like to think I'm wrong, but motorcyclists in general are their own worse enemies in terms of public perception and opinion. A few videos on the news re swarms of riders taking over the streets or having someone enjoying the twisties blast by you on a side road means most citizens and politicians view riders in a negative light and very few, I think, would support reducing insurance rates for motorcycles.

    Above said, maybe a way forward is to list issues and then to craft a form letter that people can cut, paste and modify as required and then forward off to their MPP.

    There is a forum for input ............ Survey: making auto insurance more accessible and affordable in Ontario

    https://www.ontario.ca/form/survey-making-auto-insurance-more-accessible-and-affordable-ontario

    There is a section for comments at the bottom of the survey


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  15. #15
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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    I am willing to help and support @Mad Mike to take the charge on this one.

    Better then keeping our heads in the sand and hoping it will get better, it won't.
    Time to do something.

    What do we have to do?
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  16. #16

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    How is it possible to site monatary woes for reasons to increase insurance, when they consistently post record profits year after year.
    In a Country where insurance is mandatory, we should also be provided independant low cost insurance.

    This is complete BULL$HIT.


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  17. #17

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mike View Post
    I don't mind taking the lead, I'm looking for a way to make a show of force.

    Step 1. Identify some reasonable issues and concerns

    Step 2. Drive some consensus on recommendations

    Step 3. Consolidate the voice so they know it's not just a handful of grumps

    Influencing politicians isn't easy, you have to organize your voice into a block to can punch above your weight. I think the numbers are here... do we have the interest and support?Lets start by gathering concerns. If we hit 4 pages of responses, we can narrow things down and focus. Let me start with a few of my concerns.

    1) Initial cost for new riders hurts the interest group. Possible solution: institute a fair price program for new riders on 250cc and down bikes.

    2) Multi-bike policies are outrageously expensive. Possible solutions: Allow bike owners to buy plate insurance - one plate multiple bikes -- pay the rate for the highest rated bike.

    3) Real risk rates. Possible Solutions: Insurers or their lobby releases actuarial data used to set rates.Any more ideas?

    How about this. We need increased competition and choices from additional companies insuring bikes. Insurance companies should not be allowed to cherry pick which vehicles they insure. In other words, if they want to insure cars in Ontario, they should also have to offer insurance for bikes. Some Insurers don't offer policies for bikes. Some offer cheap bike insurance if you have other policies with them. It seems to me that by leveling the playing field and dictating that companies insuring cars, must also insure bikes, we would at least have more choices and perhaps lower rates.



    In my family we have 3 cars insured. As long as I include a Home insurance policy, I get a discount. This company won't insure bikes.

  18. #18

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    How about not being able to black list any bike in the legal Canadian market
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  19. #19

    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    We need a lobby group! One with a name that people take seriously and of course it needs a long convoluted name which has to appear as an acronym. I know, we can call it 'Motorcyclists Against Fatuous Insurance Allotments' Hi there, I'm collecting for the MAF.... wait, that one might not work so good.

  20. #20

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    Re: Ontario Insurance Reform - Can we be loud unough to hear?

    Wow, really you think our current political leaders are the equivalent of Hitler??? I guess you haven't read enough history books, or studied the atrocities, that occurred under Hitler.

    As for only Liberals and Conservative parties being "corrupt". We had an NDP government. I prefer NOT to go back to that. Other provinces have had NDP governments, and their residents complain just as much about the cost of insurance. Sure vote in the green party, you would CERTAINLY see taxes and tarifs slapped on bikes, AND cars as "enemies of the environment" So again no thanks.

    As for the times people have said "why do we need Accident Benefits? We are covered by medical care already." NO your NOT, OHIP, does NOT cover, chiropractors, Physio, massage, etc, etc, etc. So when you need them your INSURER pays for those services So in the end yes you DO need AB. Now having said that, I do agree, premiums are way too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by boyoboy View Post
    ... when you see the insurance bureau representative on the news all happy and upbeat and glowing with the "changes coming" ....you know we're ALL gonna get screwed. Big mistake for us allowing a conservative majority.

    Using the not withstanding clause ? Ford is truly nuts. Even at the bush/trump level nuts! Transit mess? we save money lol.
    Expect to get stopped and harrassed when you ride or drive within 100m of a beer store; or maybe just because you ride a bike; Makes no difference because cops can now arbitrarily pull you over for no reason. Absolutely nuts. This is very very reminiscent of hitlers nazi's powers. We need to start supporting another political party for influence and to prevent a political party from ever having a majority license to dictate again; Im guessing germany has at least four, five, or more political parties now represented in parliament. Here, people just keep voting liberal and conservative. Both parties are corrupt and self serving- we know that, so why do we keep voting for them?

    WE have the right to vote - but no one to vote for. That is the major problem... Lets get the ndp, green party, and others influence into parliament. I vote, but not for any liberal or neo nazi conservative.

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