Court Outcome re Accident | GTAMotorcycle.com

Court Outcome re Accident

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You'll probably recall reading about this terrible accident last summer.

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer...boree-motorcycle-collision-devastates-family/

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer...ing-in-tragic-havelock-area-motorcycle-crash/

Gary Gilson's licence was suspended for a year and he received $1,000 fine. He was charged with careless driving and pleaded guilty.

I give this guy some credit for pleading guilty and sparing all involved the stress and pain of reliving all of this through a trial. This said, the fine seems to be a ludicrously small amount. I'm sure this guy is going to be sued in civil court but local hunters and fishermens are fined more than this for shooting a duck out of season or catching more than your legal limit of bass.

There should be some qualifier for fines and other penalties related to careless driving that causes just property damage vs. careless driving that causes injury(ies) and/or death(s).
 
I'm with you.

I know a tow truck driver that responded to that wreck and the negative impact on him alone exceeds that ludicrous penalty. I am all for stupidly expensive penalties if you ever want you license back after killing people (eg. $100K+ if you want your license back, otherwise, 10K+ and never drive again).
 
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I've said something of this sort before.

The minimum penalty for being at fault in a collision that hurts or kills someone should be at least as much as the current stunt driving penalties along with revocation of your driver's license.

If you want your driver's license back it should be a complete reset as if you had never had a drivers license.

You can't force people to behave, but at least you can make them reread the rules and make it expensive and time consuming.
 
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The province already introduced legislation last fall to change the HTA in relation to penalties for ‘careless driving causing death or bodily harm.’

It’s effectively a new offence that will carry a fine of up to $50K, licence suspension up to 5 yrs, jail time up to 2 yrs and 6 demerit points.

According to the article I read, it will be phased in along with other HTA changes over a period of 12 to 18 months.


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see thats the thing about accidents, its an accident. Its tragic and horrible, but its not malicious or intentional. An at fault collision can be an everybody walks away, or not. How can you say, well if somebody is hurt thats a different fine, it helps nothing. The fine goes into provincial coffers, now having lots of insurance thats a different story. 2mil minimum should be compulsory. Regrettably even that wont be enough in this instance.
 
Unfortunately, the article doesn't identify the driver of the pick up. Without a name it would virtually impossible to find out, what the final outcome was in court. Obviously, the easiest way to discover what the court ruling was, is if the media does a follow up story.

Next is to do a google search on the accused name. Other than that, unless, it is a case which sets precedence, (then it ends up in Canlaw database), there really isn't an easy way to find the sentence.

How does one find this kind of info?There was a fatal accident outside the shop i worked at June 7th 2017.Driver of a small pickup ran a stop sign (driver told me that) and hit and killed a rider.Joe Cotou suffered a lot of injuries and died in hospital shortly after.I would be interested to know the outcome.
https://www.guelphmercury.com/news-...ph-police-identify-victim-of-fatal-collision/
 
I see this topic floated around motorcycle forums and hear it from riders somewhat frequently. My problem with it is a lot of motorcycle related deaths could of been anything from just a small accident with no injuries to minor injuries if the riders were in a car. I would have a really tough time seeing the other driver involved punished more due to someone else's decision to ride a motorcycle.

I feel the same way when I see riders that have been involved in a accident and talk about how the other driver was 100% at fault. That's great for insurance and court purposes but it doesn't really matter when your laying on the ground. I like to think that I don't put myself in vulnerable positions when I'm on my bike and try to be much more aware of what's going on around me opposed to if I'm in a car. A lot of things we do as riders we end up doing as drivers anyways and I imagine are safer drivers in general then non riders.
 
I would think that ALL these people if convicted of being at fault in a court of law will be sued big-time in civil court after the conviction is registered and that conviction would weight heavy in the civil proceedings. If that's the way it unfolds then that person's life is over. Their insurance, if they had any, would be limited to what ever coverage they had. Beyond that, it's out of pocket for the individual and most likely they'd be paying for the rest of their natural lives. Whether they get a $1,000.00 or a $100,000.00 find in the court proceeding almost doesn't matter compared to what the civil lawsuit will cost them and that's the part you will never hear about.
 
see thats the thing about accidents, its an accident. Its tragic and horrible, but its not malicious or intentional. An at fault collision can be an everybody walks away, or not. How can you say, well if somebody is hurt thats a different fine, it helps nothing. The fine goes into provincial coffers, now having lots of insurance thats a different story. 2mil minimum should be compulsory. Regrettably even that wont be enough in this instance.

It's not an "accident" if it is preventable or a result of carelessness. You don't need malicious intent to be grossly negligent where you ought to have known better.
 
I would think that ALL these people if convicted of being at fault in a court of law will be sued big-time in civil court after the conviction is registered and that conviction would weight heavy in the civil proceedings. If that's the way it unfolds then that person's life is over. Their insurance, if they had any, would be limited to what ever coverage they had. Beyond that, it's out of pocket for the individual and most likely they'd be paying for the rest of their natural lives. Whether they get a $1,000.00 or a $100,000.00 find in the court proceeding almost doesn't matter compared to what the civil lawsuit will cost them and that's the part you will never hear about.

The first bunch of the civil settlement will come from insurance. If the lawyers can get the settlement below the policy limit, it will only cost the driver their deductible. If the settlement vastly exceeds their policy limit, you train of thought holds.
 
From the article :

[FONT=&quot]"On Oct. 9, Kathy, the Porters, Lobb and Gordon, along with other Rocheleau family members, filed a civil suit against Gilson and the involved insurance companies.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The complainants are suing for millions, Daya said."

[/FONT]
 
You'll probably recall reading about this terrible accident last summer.

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer...boree-motorcycle-collision-devastates-family/

https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer...ing-in-tragic-havelock-area-motorcycle-crash/

[FONT=&]Gary Gilson's licence was suspended for a year and he received $1,000 fine. He was charged with careless driving and pleaded guilty.

I give this guy some credit for pleading guilty and sparing all involved the stress and pain of reliving all of this through a trial. This said, the fine seems to be a ludicrously small amount. I'm sure this guy is going to be sued in civil court but local hunters and fishermens are fined more than this for shooting a duck out of season or catching more than your legal limit of bass.

There should be some qualifier for fines and other penalties related to careless driving that causes just property damage vs. careless driving that causes injury(ies) and/or death(s). [/FONT]

Had Gilson just gone into a ditch instead he would be like a thousand other drivers that day, making a bad decision with some arguing the suspension was overkill. The carnage from that bad decision is the problem.

Are there any saints among us that have never made a mistake? Hopefully we got away with it or the damage was minor.

If Gilson has an ounce of conscience and could go back in time he would have taken a different course of action. We all set out as optimists, never thinking that taking a phone call, sip of coffee, glance at a view, adjusting the radio etc could devastate the lives of a countless number of people. What if Gilson had taken a sip of coffee and not drowsed off?

Assuming Gilson to be a decent person he has learned his lesson and if his life ever returns to normal he will never make the same mistake again. How do we make other people learn from his mistake? No one thinks they're going to crash in a hour or two.

Short of replacing every drivers side air bag with an anti personnel mine and travelling in constant fear how do we stop the problem?

The civil suit will mitigate some damages but unless you've been close to someone who has been in a traumatic event you can't appreciate the massive circle of damage that will never shrink.
 
What if Gilson had taken a sip of coffee and not drowsed off?

Assuming Gilson to be a decent person he has learned his lesson and if his life ever returns to normal he will never make the same mistake again. How do we make other people learn from his mistake? No one thinks they're going to crash in a hour or two.

I never heard the reason that this guy crossed the center line, did he fall asleep at the wheel? The guy who took out a few people on the 118 summer of 2017 fell asleep as well.

I could be dead wrong but I think that many "accidents" happen because of poor, risky or incompetent behavior repeated often enough that the odds simply run out for some people. Consequences could be a fender bender or people killed and maimed.

Hearing about someone who is pulled over for DUI, has their vehicle seized, license suspended, heavy fine and insurance costs jacked up for years I think motivates many people to moderate their drinking or to have someone as a designated driver. On the other hand, you'll probably always have the serious drunks who are repeat offenders and short of them being in jail or having ignition lockouts they are still going to drink and drive.

How many of us watch our speedometers very carefully now due to the huge financial consequences of being 50 kph over?

So, maybe not a solution for everyone and all scenarios but the knowledge of and threat of heavy fines and long term expense could well motivate some people to think about their actions and to not head out on a trip when they are dead tired or maybe to put their phones down and not text while driving.
 
I never heard the reason that this guy crossed the center line, did he fall asleep at the wheel? The guy who took out a few people on the 118 summer of 2017 fell asleep as well.

One of the articles linked above said the driver fell asleep. Who knows if that is the truth or just a way to minimize the penalties imposed by the courts.
 
Well we would LIKE to think the consequences of impaired driving are big fines, but that simply is NOT the case. A few weeks ago I accompanied a friend to court, where she is the complainant. While waiting for her case to be called, the court heard 2 cases of impaired driving. One case involved NO crash, nothing other than the normal erratic driving that drew attention of the police. He plead guilty. 1 year suspension, and $1,000 fine.

The second case involved a young person (23), who hit three other vehicles and was still attempting to drive away, when the police arrived. He was "combative" with the police. Something I encountered ALL the time during my time in a cruiser. His sentence, (crown and defense asked for a 15 Month driving ban, jointly as a submission). The judge messed up when passing sentence, he doled out standard 12 months and a $2,000. So hardly stiff penalties. Those were financial penalties I seen imposed in the late 70's early 80's when I was routinely in impaired court, (which was a LOT of money back in that time). My first vehicle a 72 Nova when brand new retailed for $4,500...lol

Then another guy came up. He was from K-W area, owned his own construction company, was an immigrant from south america. He was pulled over on 401 near Bowmanville as the vehicle appeared overloaded. His lawyer said he and 2 employees were driving to a job when the driver got ill so he took the wheel. Although not disclosed why, this was his second conviction for driving while under suspension. He had a previous 2 year driving ban, as well as a LIFE time ban from driving. Again the court wasn't told why those had been imposed, (BUT in my experience a lifetime prohibition only RARELY occurs and is a result of something pretty heavy). No collision, no injuries etc. His sentence, (no further driving prohibition, which was moot anyway given the lifetime ban), and 90 days in jail to be served on weekends, (fri 8 pm till 5 AM Mionday, so credited with 3 days per weekend). So courts don't take these things seriously, (most of the judges think give a person a break and they will fly right). Not a sentiment I ever shared.

I never heard the reason that this guy crossed the center line, did he fall asleep at the wheel? The guy who took out a few people on the 118 summer of 2017 fell asleep as well.

I could be dead wrong but I think that many "accidents" happen because of poor, risky or incompetent behavior repeated often enough that the odds simply run out for some people. Consequences could be a fender bender or people killed and maimed.

Hearing about someone who is pulled over for DUI, has their vehicle seized, license suspended, heavy fine and insurance costs jacked up for years I think motivates many people to moderate their drinking or to have someone as a designated driver. On the other hand, you'll probably always have the serious drunks who are repeat offenders and short of them being in jail or having ignition lockouts they are still going to drink and drive.

How many of us watch our speedometers very carefully now due to the huge financial consequences of being 50 kph over?

So, maybe not a solution for everyone and all scenarios but the knowledge of and threat of heavy fines and long term expense could well motivate some people to think about their actions and to not head out on a trip when they are dead tired or maybe to put their phones down and not text while driving.
 
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As a copper, I NEVER investigated a single "accident". I did investigate, (back when cops actually attended the scene and did an investigation...lol), several hundred COLLISIONS. There is no such thing as an "accident." Collisions, occur as a result of human input, and therefore are inheritedly, avoidable.

In the case being discussed the article stated that the driver fell asleep, which is preventable, and therefore, NOT an accident.


see thats the thing about accidents, its an accident. Its tragic and horrible, but its not malicious or intentional. An at fault collision can be an everybody walks away, or not. How can you say, well if somebody is hurt thats a different fine, it helps nothing. The fine goes into provincial coffers, now having lots of insurance thats a different story. 2mil minimum should be compulsory. Regrettably even that wont be enough in this instance.
 
Most driver's carry $1 mill liability, (I carry $2 Mill), but even $2 mill won't come close to the eventual settlements to all parties. Even my lawyer filed for $1 mill we have yet to settle, but it will be under $100,00, so lawyers OVER REACH. But having said that, even IF this driver had millions at his disposal, at the time of the collision, ALL of those assets have been liquidated, by hi8s lawyers and are now untouchable, by the injured parties.

So as harsh as it sounds, other than his increased premiums, this driver will "feel" very little from any settlements, houses and properties if they existed have been transferred to others to protect them etc. Even in civil court a judge can't make liquidated assets reappear. Then of course collecting on a judgment is another story. How much money does an injured party spend in an "attempt" to recoup judgments?

I would think that ALL these people if convicted of being at fault in a court of law will be sued big-time in civil court after the conviction is registered and that conviction would weight heavy in the civil proceedings. If that's the way it unfolds then that person's life is over. Their insurance, if they had any, would be limited to what ever coverage they had. Beyond that, it's out of pocket for the individual and most likely they'd be paying for the rest of their natural lives. Whether they get a $1,000.00 or a $100,000.00 find in the court proceeding almost doesn't matter compared to what the civil lawsuit will cost them and that's the part you will never hear about.
 
I never heard the reason that this guy crossed the center line, did he fall asleep at the wheel? The guy who took out a few people on the 118 summer of 2017 fell asleep as well.

I could be dead wrong but I think that many "accidents" happen because of poor, risky or incompetent behavior repeated often enough that the odds simply run out for some people. Consequences could be a fender bender or people killed and maimed.

Hearing about someone who is pulled over for DUI, has their vehicle seized, license suspended, heavy fine and insurance costs jacked up for years I think motivates many people to moderate their drinking or to have someone as a designated driver. On the other hand, you'll probably always have the serious drunks who are repeat offenders and short of them being in jail or having ignition lockouts they are still going to drink and drive.

How many of us watch our speedometers very carefully now due to the huge financial consequences of being 50 kph over?

So, maybe not a solution for everyone and all scenarios but the knowledge of and threat of heavy fines and long term expense could well motivate some people to think about their actions and to not head out on a trip when they are dead tired or maybe to put their phones down and not text while driving.

In the Roman armies desertion was punished by decimation. One soldier in 10 was executed. A deserter was never more than a five count away from death but 90% of the army was still there to fight on. Could heavy enforcement and fines act like decimation?

The main reason we're reading about the trial outcome is because we are in a special interest group, motorcycles. Would stiff penalties with lots of publicity make others more aware?

Would it make a difference to you if you noticed a coworker taking the TTC to work because of a lost license?

If Gilson was the typical good next door neighbour and people saw him selling his house to pay his legal bills and settlements would it make others drive more carefully?

I totally agree that drivers are getting sloppier because of the "I've never had an accident before" mentality. This could have been Gilson's first crash. "I'll be careful from now on" is of little consolation.

We're told to not get into a car with a drunk driver and that is socially acceptable. If a person gets into a car and the driver starts to text do we get out or cause a stink? Peer pressure can be powerful.

I'm on the outs with a family member because I cut off a conversation as it was getting too intense IMO and they were driving.

Driving for most is not a skill set of which one is proud. It gets you there.

We can talk until we're blue in the face and get nowhere because the problems stem from numerous sources and no one wants to give up their options
 
Well we would LIKE to think the consequences of impaired driving are big fines, but that simply is NOT the case. A few weeks ago I accompanied a friend to court, where she is the complainant. While waiting for her case to be called, the court heard 2 cases of impaired driving. One case involved NO crash, nothing other than the normal erratic driving that drew attention of the police. He plead guilty. 1 year suspension, and $1,000 fine.

The second case involved a young person (23), who hit three other vehicles and was still attempting to drive away, when the police arrived. He was "combative" with the police. Something I encountered ALL the time during my time in a cruiser. His sentence, (crown and defense asked for a 15 Month driving ban, jointly as a submission). The judge messed up when passing sentence, he doled out standard 12 months and a $2,000. So hardly stiff penalties. Those were financial penalties I seen imposed in the late 70's early 80's when I was routinely in impaired court, (which was a LOT of money back in that time). My first vehicle a 72 Nova when brand new retailed for $4,500...lol

Then another guy came up. He was from K-W area, owned his own construction company, was an immigrant from south america. He was pulled over on 401 near Bowmanville as the vehicle appeared overloaded. His lawyer said he and 2 employees were driving to a job when the driver got ill so he took the wheel. Although not disclosed why, this was his second conviction for driving while under suspension. He had a previous 2 year driving ban, as well as a LIFE time ban from driving. Again the court wasn't told why those had been imposed, (BUT in my experience a lifetime prohibition only RARELY occurs and is a result of something pretty heavy). No collision, no injuries etc. His sentence, (no further driving prohibition, which was moot anyway given the lifetime ban), and 90 days in jail to be served on weekends, (fri 8 pm till 5 AM Mionday, so credited with 3 days per weekend). So courts don't take these things seriously, (most of the judges think give a person a break and they will fly right). Not a sentiment I ever shared.

I understand the points you've made.

Not to flog this topic to death but a $1,000 fine and 1y suspension has significant impact on driving costs for many years (minimum $5,000 - $10,000 long term) + if you live in the sticks and work in TO you're totally screwed re your commute. While the fine could be larger I think this situation would have a significant deterrent impact on most reasonable people.

Then there are the hard cases. Last example you provide is ridiculous in terms of consequences. Like the chronic drunk driver other than being in jail how do you keep a guy like this off the road? One solution might be vehicle forfeiture. You're prohibited from owning or registering any vehicle and if you get caught driving you lose the vehicle in question regardless of who has title. I'd like to think these types of guys are in the minority, but maybe I'd just naive.
 

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