What is H-D up to ? | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

What is H-D up to ?

There's no doubt that the style of riding has changed. You can see it in the garage and custom bike subculture. ADV bikes, "Street" tracker style garage bikes, etc. People want a more versatile, lightweight motorcycle. But HD can't make those at a reasonable price. It's just not possible to do with U.S. paid workers and suppliers. If HD were to build an H2 it would be priced into the $100g's. They sell big, comfortable freeway cruisers with classic old-world styling, demi-choppers and show-style bikes. In spite of rumors, they sell a lot of those. It's just not a sustainable mass market now. Packard went bankrupt. HD will be here long after we're all gone.

I find it interesting that HD can't make a profit because of the perceived high wages they would pay in the usa. I would bet that bmw pays better than HD and has better benefits. Is conflicting to me that HD can't; and bmw can. Ditto for ducati. Seen a michael moore video where they are touring the ducati factory...gourmet dinners and 5 weeks PAID vacation every year. Maternity benefits and the time off are nothing short of jaw dropping to north americans. Ducati is an amazing company to work for...employees credit their union for fighting every step of the way.

I don't think seeking out slave wages is necessary for success.
 
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I find it interesting that HD can't make a profit because of the perceived high wages they would pay in the usa. I would bet that bmw pays better than HD and has better benefits. Is conflicting to me that HD can't; and bmw can. Ditto for ducati. Seen a michael moore video where they are touring the ducati factory...gourmet dinners and 5 weeks PAID vacation every year. Ducati is an amazing company to work for...employees credit their union for fighting every step of the way.

I don't think seeking out slave wages is necessary for success.

I don't think it's an issue of not being able to make a profit because of high wages, it's about a shrinking market/market share.

Both BMW & Ducati have a range of truly different models at different price points for different purposes & tastes. I believe BMW makes/assembles some of it's product in cheaper jurisdictions and maybe Ducati as well.
 
I don't think it's an issue of not being able to make a profit because of high wages, it's about a shrinking market/market share.

Both BMW & Ducati have a range of truly different models at different price points for different purposes & tastes. I believe BMW makes/assembles some of it's product in cheaper jurisdictions and maybe Ducati as well.

I too, do not know if bmw/ducati source some of their products from countries outside of europe. The shrinking market for HD is a very good point. Perhaps HD could learn from bmw and ducati.
 
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BMW G310GS is made in India (partnership with TVS Motors).
Ducati Scrambler and Monster made in Thailand.

These motorcycles are manufactured to be as close as possible to where most of them will eventually be sold to avoid import tariffs.

BMW did this when they opened a plant in South Carolina to build their X5 SUVs and Z4 convertibles, most of them destined for the US market.

Unfortunately for HD, this won't work as well for them because they sell the most bikes in the USA.

Still, they are moving some production to Europe destined for that market to offset Trump tariffs.
 
BMW G310GS is made in India (partnership with TVS Motors).
Ducati Scrambler and Monster made in Thailand.

These motorcycles are manufactured to be as close as possible to where most of them will eventually be sold to avoid import tariffs.

BMW did this when they opened a plant in South Carolina to build their X5 SUVs and Z4 convertibles, most of them destined for the US market.

Unfortunately for HD, this won't work as well for them because they sell the most bikes in the USA.

Still, they are moving some production to Europe destined for that market to offset Trump tariffs.

Trump is a person who uses blackmail for control, and probably learned this from his prior business dealings. This is what he did to HD; by saying he will put tariffs so high on HD products from europe. This was nothing short of blackmail. Trump is not helping HD and this may backfire ..
 
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I would think it very difficult to be a marketing manager at HD. We build big V twins because thats how it gets done. We did the singles , dirt bikes, small cruisers, co branding and took a run at supersports and it went poorly. Well the ADV market is kicking so lets go make one of those. Its going to be a bit oddly styled and may have no actual use "adv"ing . Create a market plan.

But fellas, BMW created the market segment and has ruled it more or less for 3 decades, and just when ins. got silly and there was a legitimate swing to smaller adv bikes built a 300 series. You really want to take a swing for that fence?

Well we beat the Germans last time.....
 
I would think it very difficult to be a marketing manager at HD. We build big V twins because thats how it gets done. We did the singles , dirt bikes, small cruisers, co branding and took a run at supersports and it went poorly. Well the ADV market is kicking so lets go make one of those. Its going to be a bit oddly styled and may have no actual use "adv"ing . Create a market plan.

But fellas, BMW created the market segment and has ruled it more or less for 3 decades, and just when ins. got silly and there was a legitimate swing to smaller adv bikes built a 300 series. You really want to take a swing for that fence?

Well we beat the Germans last time.....
HD has it's work cut out, but don't count them down. You have to remember a few things:

1) Everyone has taken a run at HD's coveted market position in the heavy cruiser market. They still try, some like BMW and Guzzi quit.
2) HD entered the power cruiser market with the VROD and outsold the entire market -- they owned Yamaha, Kawi, and Ducati.
3) Buell sold 10,000 bikes a year -- not shabby for a 2 option lineup.
3) BMW GS bikes hit some large numbers this year at a combined 50,000 units (not including the little ones). Add the numbers from Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki and you have a big market that can certainly support a new entrant. Unseating any of these will be tough, but it's doable.

I think HD might have turned the corner on their thinking. They say they want to fix their dealer bias and to reduce dependence on their potato-potato heritage. In the past when Indian got fired up, HD never took long to get back into the party. I'm going to buy some HD stock.
 
Just had a thought with all the talk of HD pricing models. In the early days, an HD cost roughly 2/3 the price of one of Henry Ford's trucks. Today, the absolute top of the line HD, costs half as much as a top of the range Ford Truck. Seems they're right where they've always been, or maybe a bit better even. Perhaps it's us working men that aren't doing so good.
 
article was an interesting read
one point I found unusual
was the statement that HD wants stronger dealers

maybe internationality it's different
but in NA, I'm sure it would be a dream come true
for the Jap OEM's to have well capitalized dealers like HD has

last new bike I bought - Yamaha
the dealer literally operated from a barn
 
article was an interesting read
one point I found unusual
was the statement that HD wants stronger dealers

maybe internationality it's different
but in NA, I'm sure it would be a dream come true
for the Jap OEM's to have well capitalized dealers like HD has

last new bike I bought - Yamaha
the dealer literally operated from a barn

Harley probably has the best dealer network in N. America. They are everywhere and the Harley shops I have been in have always been nice places that felt really friendly. Wish all dealers were like that and had that kind of coverage. Closest BMW dealer is an hour away, which is not bad but definitely have to plan a bit when going in for service.
 
Harley probably has the best dealer network in N. America. They are everywhere and the Harley shops I have been in have always been nice places that felt really friendly. Wish all dealers were like that and had that kind of coverage. Closest BMW dealer is an hour away, which is not bad but definitely have to plan a bit when going in for service.
The issue with HD dealers is when they enter a new segment of the market, their dealers have never embraced new products into their main line of business. HD knows this must change in order to be successful in new markets.
 
3) BMW GS bikes hit some large numbers this year at a combined 50,000 units (not including the little ones). Add the numbers from Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki and you have a big market that can certainly support a new entrant. Unseating any of these will be tough, but it's doable.

I think HD might have turned the corner on their thinking.

It depends. HD (like many companies) become fixated on what they believe to be their unique features. I recall reading that when they had Buell they insisted on the sportster engine and belt drive much to the disappointment of Eric Buell. Which is a serious case of the pot calling the kettle black as he was as enamoured (maybe more so) with his ideas.


If HD puts forward an ADV bike that isn't a complete departure in every aspect from its current product it will not find much favor. Belt drive, oversized handgrips, and the like won't cut it.


They need to walk a fine line. They're not a motorcycle company they're Harley Davidson and their core customers don't ride motorcycles they ride Harleys. Their challenge is to grow the portion of the market that would consider owning an HD without alienating the majority of the core. Not an easy thing to do.
 
I find it interesting that HD can't make a profit because of the perceived high wages they would pay in the usa. I would bet that bmw pays better than HD and has better benefits. Is conflicting to me that HD can't; and bmw can. Ditto for ducati. Seen a michael moore video where they are touring the ducati factory...gourmet dinners and 5 weeks PAID vacation every year. Maternity benefits and the time off are nothing short of jaw dropping to north americans. Ducati is an amazing company to work for...employees credit their union for fighting every step of the way.

I don't think seeking out slave wages is necessary for success.
Michael Moore makes performative documentaries -- a form of film making that presents hypothetical not real depictions of the way things work -- you see impressions of what things might be, not precisely what they are.

Ducati historically did not make a profit. Under Audi stewardship, they are moving production to Thailand, where they now produce close to 20% of their bikes, and 100% of their profits. That mix puts HD and Ducati at a very similar in cost, price and profit margins. I think HD sees the same opportunity and has also recognized that bikes over 125CC can now be built successfully in places like India and Thailand, and Indonesia.

Don't shed tears for HD yet -- despite their published woes HD's profit is still larger than all European (BMW, Triumph, Ducati, MV, MG, KTM, Aprila, Agusta...) motorcycle manufacturers combined.
 
Don't shed tears for HD yet -- despite their published woes HD's profit is still larger than all European (BMW, Triumph, Ducati, MV, MG, KTM, Aprila, Agusta...) motorcycle manufacturers combined.

I found that difficult to believe, so had to look it up myself.

You're right, but it's very close:

FY2017 profits in USD

HD: $521.8MM
BMW Motorrad: $255MM
KTM: $152MM
Ducati: $64MM
Triumph: $34MM
Aprilia & Moto Guzzi: Privately held by Piaggio, which netted $28MM
MV: Privately held by Comsar. Probably close to $0 or negative.

What surprised me was how profitable KTM was. Pretty good for a dirtbike company.

Also, KTM sold 238,334 units and HD sold 242,788. Granted, most are $7K dirtbikes vs $20K iron horses.

I know the markup is huge on Harleys, but the discrepancy in profits is astounding. Most likely due to revenue from HD branded apparel and lifestyle products, which I've read they make more money from than the sale of their bikes.
 
HD apparel is marked up accordingly as well. $45 for one T-shirt

If you have never been to a HD dealership you should go. You will get a better sense of the size of their operation. Showroom full of new bikes, lots of staff who are all friendly, pleasant, lots of gear. and the place feels alive and is busy.

I have been to a couple of Honda dealers and it was like crickets, who can I talk to, is there a model I can see? Anybody?

Not trying to toot HD horn. But check it out even if you have no interest in the bikes.


Sent from the moon!
 
I'm very familiar with HD dealerships. Just had no idea the company was that profitable.

The reason for the crickets in Honda dealerships is that the staff is more interested in selling cars, generators and lawnmowers. Different story overseas.

Edit: Honda motorcycle sales in North America: 294,000 units. In Asia: 15,937,000 units.

Despite the crickets, they still managed to outsell HD in their own home turf.

Honda Motorcycles Profitability: $1.547 BILLION. Three times the size of Harley!
 
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Seen a michael moore video where they are touring the ducati factory...gourmet dinners and 5 weeks PAID vacation every year. Maternity benefits and the time off are nothing short of jaw dropping to north americans.

That is not specific to Ducati, these are regular labour benefits laws common in western European countries. Maybe with the exception of gourmet dinners.
 
I'm very familiar with HD dealerships. Just had no idea the company was that profitable.

The reason for the crickets in Honda dealerships is that the staff is more interested in selling cars, generators and lawnmowers. Different story overseas.

Edit: Honda motorcycle sales in North America: 294,000 units. In Asia: 15,937,000 units.

Despite the crickets, they still managed to outsell HD in their own home turf.

Honda Motorcycles Profitability: $1.547 BILLION. Three times the size of Harley!
The Japanese are in a different league all together -- they make a ton of money on the small cc market where US and Euro makers don't play.

The main issue facing HD is they are dependent on one market segment, cruisers, and that segment is changing and shrinking. The ADV segment fits their model for margin and demographics, they also have big CC motors and production facilities for heavy cycles. If I were in charge of HD, I'd try to buy KTM instead of redefining from within.
 

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