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  1. #21

    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfin View Post
    Maybe part of the problem is that pedestrians and cyclists have a false sense of security because politicians talk-up bike lanes, share-the-road and Euro-style pedestrian malls so much that they -- the pedestrians and cyclists -- think everyone is on same page and that this Shangri-La actually exists here in Canada.
    Unfortunately news don't clearly report the accident circumstances in pedestrian/cyclist and cars accidents. Both sides are left to assume the other was to blame. Even here, it's frowned upon to discuss details when a rider gets killed when it's his own fault. The concern not to hurt someone's feelings prevents the community from learning a lesson.

  2. #22

    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by backmarkerducati View Post
    The real question IMO is what has changed. Numbers have been going up over the years. Distraction and aggression are the answer IMO.

    -Distraction due to people texting, both pedestrians and drivers.
    -Disobeying traffic laws due to aggression.
    -Aggression due to congestion (and driving frustration) and new traffic rules just making congestion worse.

    Want to fix it:
    -Distracted walking rules (looking at phone while crossing the street=fine). Safety blitz on it (lots of tickets).
    -Ticket pedestrians for crossing against lights, middle of intersection (double up if on the fines).
    -Ticket cyclists more.
    -Really crack down on distracted drivers, I mean really with a heavy fist.
    -Sync lights to get traffic flowing better, do all we can to get things moving.
    -Fix the King street disaster (more driver frustration and aggression).
    -Remove dumb new rules like having to wait until the pedestrian fully cross the street (should be clears your side of the street).
    -Increase some speed limits in certain areas (again traffic moving).

    Many new bike lanes, new rules, etc. just increases aggression--sort of counter-intuitive but making drivers more angry is not solving anything. Reducing the speed limits everywhere (like they want to do) will also just add to the aggression.

    More transit is a great idea (I do support it, it is a long term fix) but it will take a long time and $$$$$ so it is not a short term fix. Lower aggression and distraction, that is the answer today...transit later.
    I looked at some data today from the TPS and the KSI (Killed or Severely Injured) rates have been going down gradually for pedestrians and cyclists over the years. Everyone's saying it's a growing problem, but according to what data?

    Same problem with all these proposed solutions; what data is it based off of? Where's the assessment of the causes for these crashes so that we can have an informed opinion about the best way to reduce them? I don't think 'everyone is distracted and ****** off' makes a lot of sense except to vent that driving downtown ****** you off.
    The odd times I felt I'd approached the truth, it rested on the premise that people are essentially good and smart.

  3. #23
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by fastar1 View Post
    Here's a study that shows when the right of way is known after a collision, pedestrians had the right of way 78% of the time (table 18 )
    https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/...file-81601.pdf

    Do you have a copy of that Waterloo study to share?
    I read the report. Hope you didn't have anything anywhere near to do with it. What a mess. I hope they didn't actually pay for it. It totally disregarded some data, combined and separated other bits at random or to reach a predefined conclusion? They also seemed to have read the final data backwards, used the words "Widely accepted" to come to a conclusion with no data, and ignored that bicycles may not be stopping at stop signs.

    From reading it, it would seem the best way forward would be to increase speed limits on arterial roads to 70 kph. That would up the perception of danger, which might make people pay more attention and keep themselves alive.
    Ignorance is curable, Apathy not so much, but I don't care, I'll try anyway.

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  4. #24

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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by Baggsy View Post
    I read the report. Hope you didn't have anything anywhere near to do with it. What a mess. I hope they didn't actually pay for it. It totally disregarded some data, combined and separated other bits at random or to reach a predefined conclusion? They also seemed to have read the final data backwards, used the words "Widely accepted" to come to a conclusion with no data, and ignored that bicycles may not be stopping at stop signs.

    From reading it, it would seem the best way forward would be to increase speed limits on arterial roads to 70 kph. That would up the perception of danger, which might make people pay more attention and keep themselves alive.
    I'll never going to take a 'staff report' from the city of anywhere -- particularly Toronto -- as gospel.

    https://www.therecord.com/news-story...le-collisions/
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  5. #25

    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Thanks Baggsy. I can always count on your disagreement to validate my claim.
    The odd times I felt I'd approached the truth, it rested on the premise that people are essentially good and smart.

  6. #26
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mike View Post
    I'll never going to take a 'staff report' from the city of anywhere -- particularly Toronto -- as gospel.

    https://www.therecord.com/news-story...le-collisions/
    I've come close to hitting a bicyclist who rode off the sidewalk into an intersection while I was already partway through making a left turn that involved crossing the cyclist's path.

    I've also come close to having a bicyclist hit my car on the sidewalk in front of my house. Another vehicle in the driveway obstructs view down the sidewalk (I have to pull out from beside it). For something moving along the sidewalk at walking speed (pedestrian) it's not a problem, I can see them coming in time. For a bicycle moving 20 or 30 km/h, forget it, not even possible!

    Invariably the bicyclists don't understand the role they played in almost getting hit; they're always waving fingers as if it were my fault (for them being on the sidewalk moving at much higher than pedestrian speed?).

    The cyclists think they have the right of way all the time. So do the pedestrians. How is this not a problem?

  7. #27

    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mike View Post
    I'll never going to take a 'staff report' from the city of anywhere -- particularly Toronto -- as gospel.

    https://www.therecord.com/news-story...le-collisions/
    Well at least now you can say "I've never seen a study contrary to that... that I chose to believe". That's a big step forward in revealing your personal truths.

    The Toronto study takes very simple data straight from police reports. If there's any ambiguity it's from the officers making the call on the scene, not from compiling the numbers. The report from the KW area would be from the same source, presumably, but I guess you don't know KW enough to hate their municipal government so that makes their data better than Toronto's. Because that's how data works.

    The article also seems to associate 'doing something wrong' with being at fault, which is not the same. As an example someone can be riding on the sidewalk and get hit by a car from behind.

    But hey, it's not evil Toronto data so it must be right.
    The odd times I felt I'd approached the truth, it rested on the premise that people are essentially good and smart.

  8. #28
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    In part parents get the blame for bad cyclists and pedestrians.

    We have whole families cycling here, in a herd on the sidewalk, I can see not taking the wobbly 4 yr old into traffic. I see no reason for mom/dad/two teenagers booking it along at 20k on s sidewalk and not stopping when crossing a roadway.

    Same when walking , walk/dont walk signs are just a guideline here, dad holding juniors hand just steps off the curb.

  9. #29
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by fastar1 View Post
    Thanks Baggsy. I can always count on your disagreement to validate my claim.
    Hey, I'm always here for you. Anytime you want to prove how wrong you are, just let me know! p.s. I'm willing to help celebrate if you're ever right!
    Ignorance is curable, Apathy not so much, but I don't care, I'll try anyway.

    Everyone likes to think that they may be the smartest person in the room, but sometimes that only occurs when we're alone!

  10. #30
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Well., we lost a fellow rider this morning to a hit and run driver.


    https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...-danforth.html


    Really irks me as I've been a commuting accident statistic a few years back. I was lucky. This poor guy wasn't.. And his poor family has to get "that visit" from. The cops this morning. Agh!
    -blah blah blah

  11. #31

    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by daught View Post
    Wow, today I had something to take care off so I drove downtown for the first time in a while. It took me almost an hour from Bloor and Jarvis to Queen's quay and Spadina. It's insane to believe that there will be a vehicle based solution in the future. It's only going to get worse, way worse.

    Even if all the bike lanes, all bus lanes, HOV lanes, even sidewalks, and everything that is taking up road space is removed cars are still not feasible. The only solution is a timely and convenient mass trabsit that funnels people from the whole GTA. What else could possibly work? If Ontario would have a good track I record for using money wisely and efficiently I would have no problem paying more taxes, fees and tolls to found more trains and subways, but at the moment it seems the government mismanages money at an alarming rate.
    Large urban centers, complete with their gridlocked transit systems, overpopulation, polution/noise and lack of green spaces, are increasingly becoming the least desireable places to live and work.

    Public transit systems are inadequate and roads are strained (here in Toronto) in part because there are too many single-occupant vehicles clogging streets that were never initially designed to handle the volumes we now see and experience.

    The utopian promise of digital networks was the idea that a growing remote workforce could make tedious commutes into the downtown city core a thing of the past. Granted, there are many professions outside tech sector that can't be remotely performed (e.g. doctors, nurses, contruction), but many companies haven't fully embraced the idea of a remote workforce culture -- asolution to our growing traffic problem.

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  12. #32

    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian P View Post
    I've come close to hitting a bicyclist who rode off the sidewalk into an intersection while I was already partway through making a left turn that involved crossing the cyclist's path.

    I've also come close to having a bicyclist hit my car on the sidewalk in front of my house. Another vehicle in the driveway obstructs view down the sidewalk (I have to pull out from beside it). For something moving along the sidewalk at walking speed (pedestrian) it's not a problem, I can see them coming in time. For a bicycle moving 20 or 30 km/h, forget it, not even possible!

    Invariably the bicyclists don't understand the role they played in almost getting hit; they're always waving fingers as if it were my fault (for them being on the sidewalk moving at much higher than pedestrian speed?).

    The cyclists think they have the right of way all the time. So do the pedestrians. How is this not a problem?
    I agree, there's plenty of cyclists that do stupid things like the ones you mention. But those lead to accidents where the cyclist bumps in to a car. I doubt cyclists running in to cars coming out of the driveway is what's killing them. Also cars should not have enough speed at stop all ways to kill cyclists that don't stop.

    One thing I think should be heavily enforced is lights for cycles. I run a very bright strobe light that's very visible even during the day.

  13. #33
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    I am a pedestrian.

    I am a cyclist.

    I am i motorcyclist.

    I am a cager.

    In North America, everything is owed to us. So you see that reflected in all these categories i mentioned above. Why do you think things like lane filtering can't be implemented here, when it's common occurrence literally everywhere else in the world? Because we are owed everything.

    Owed the right to drive.

    Owed the right to text while we drive.

    Owed to be one spot in front of you.

    Owed to make you wait although you could make the whole commute faster for me (and you)

    Owed to jaywalk without looking properly.

    Owed to not have to wait an extra 5 seconds at a red light before starting to cycle again, while i understand the loss of power/cadence, life is still more important. IMO


    But because of all those points and more, people stay in the same mindset. Those are our version of school shootings. You can find all that the cyclist did wrong, but in the end, the car killed the cyclist. Why? Because the car driver had murderous intentions? No, because the infrastructure doesn't encourage a safe coexistance of both methods of transportation, at least not with the type of drivers we have. Anyways, enjoy the video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W-3Mnu3Ovo
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  14. #34

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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by sburns View Post
    I believe the real problem here is the infrastructure in Toronto and the GTA is so very poorly designed. This includes everything from road space, transit, and sidewalks. Everything it seems was done with just the minimum required space. Now they are taking that which was used by cars and section off for bike lanes, then more section off for transit. It is ridiculous, squeezing more into less space. It doesn't work and the frustration levels of commuters is rising and people are more concerned about pushing through it and making bad decisions.

    I haven't driven downtown much in the past couple of years but more recently have been down there and the sidewalks are completely crowded. Bike lanes really need a separate physical spaces away from cars. This whole idea of painting a lines on the road for bike lanes is a joke. All of this is just going to get worse as they keep planning the same way all over the GTA and there doesn' look like they are truly addressing any long term issues. The city is heading towards what looks like complete grid lock.


    Sent from the moon!
    Toronto streets were almost fully developed by the time the bicycle / exercise revolution came a long in the late 1960's. I doubt that the people in charge saw the increase in activity as something of concern so planners continued the same old. Bicycles were for kids.

    In short our streets and sidewalks were designed for transportation not recreation. Fine for driving to work and shopping with the sidewalks for the pedestrians wanting to walk.

    Now we have joggers, bicycles, skateboards, Pogo sticks, hover-boards and more on the sidewalks. In my neighbourhood with good sidewalks some joggers run on the road. I guess it makes them feel important, like they're running the Boston Marathon.

    The streets and highways weren't designed for M/C rides either.

    Deregulation put more trucks on the same streets. The streets didn't get bigger.

    In most of Toronto there is no room for more lanes. It's what you can take away from others, ie bikes on sidewalks. You would have to take down the Eaton Centre to widen Yonge Street. It isn't going to happen.

    Don't forget winter where a lot of bicycles get put away. Now we have a situation where we have to pay for a high seasonal load that only gets used half the year.

    Most people want to get to work feeling and looking fresh. How many workplaces have showers and change rooms?

    Public transit improvements are the only solution but provincial growth hasn't made improvement easy. How do you make public transit feasible for a community built in the middle of nowhere with the inhabitants working downtown?

    Big box malls means you can't walk to the local hardware store for a nail. Drive instead. Want to see bad road planning? Look at the road network around big box malls.

    It has no hope of improving in the foreseeable future.

  15. #35
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by nobbie48 View Post
    Toronto streets were almost fully developed by the time the bicycle / exercise revolution came a long in the late 1960's. I doubt that the people in charge saw the increase in activity as something of concern so planners continued the same old. Bicycles were for kids.

    In short our streets and sidewalks were designed for transportation not recreation (1). Fine for driving to work and shopping with the sidewalks for the pedestrians wanting to walk.

    Now we have joggers, bicycles, skateboards, Pogo sticks, hover-boards and more on the sidewalks. In my neighbourhood with good sidewalks some joggers run on the road. I guess it makes them feel important, like they're running the Boston Marathon. (2)

    The streets and highways weren't designed for M/C rides either.

    Deregulation put more trucks on the same streets. The streets didn't get bigger.

    In most of Toronto there is no room for more lanes. It's what you can take away from others, ie bikes on sidewalks. You would have to take down the Eaton Centre to widen Yonge Street. It isn't going to happen.

    Don't forget winter where a lot of bicycles get put away. Now we have a situation where we have to pay for a high seasonal load that only gets used half the year.

    Most people want to get to work feeling and looking fresh. How many workplaces have showers and change rooms? (3)

    Public transit improvements are the only solution but provincial growth hasn't made improvement easy (4). How do you make public transit feasible for a community built in the middle of nowhere with the inhabitants working downtown?

    Big box malls means you can't walk to the local hardware store for a nail. Drive instead. Want to see bad road planning? Look at the road network around big box malls.

    It has no hope of improving in the foreseeable future.
    (1) That's i think at the root of the problem there, the bicycle was relegated as a toy, kinda like motorcycles and our mindset hasn't changed...or changed enough to see a shift in the infrastructure planning style.

    (2) Asphalt is a lot easier on the joints than concrete. Asphalt melts/absorbs is soft. Concrete resonates. Obviously dirt trails are even more forgiving... but when you pound miles upon miles of running, there will be a difference between running on concrete vs asphalt. I don't think running on main streets like that is a good idea though lol

    (3) It's going in a slow "kaizenish" way, with small incremental changes, TTC has stations downtown where you can park your bike inside a facility and give you access to shower, if a bigger increase in cyclist population happens, you might see more of that as a solution. I'm lucky to have one in my work building.

    (4) I totally agree, it's a huge part of the equation. But the wrong decisions are being made as they're guided by votes, not experts. That's why we have urban sprawl happening at an alarming rate. Moved in to brampton a decade ago, now when i go visit family there, i don't recognize it, SO MANY SEMIS AND TOWNHOUSE COMPLEXES EVERYWHERE. The price of living in Toronto too has driven people away but the infrastructure to support all these people moving away hasn't been upgraded to support that influx. Heck in my area, port credit, there's a HUGE patch of land that used to belong to Texaco, they're building a community that will have about 2500 housing units. That includes townhomes, mid rise, high rise. That a ******** of people who are going to be added to an already busy artery (Lakeshore rd near MIssissauga rd) I haven't seen any improvements in infrastructure although they've already started to dig up the area.
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  16. #36

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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by LePhillou View Post
    (1)

    (4) I totally agree, it's a huge part of the equation. But the wrong decisions are being made as they're guided by votes, not experts. That's why we have urban sprawl happening at an alarming rate. Moved in to brampton a decade ago, now when i go visit family there, i don't recognize it, SO MANY SEMIS AND TOWNHOUSE COMPLEXES EVERYWHERE. The price of living in Toronto too has driven people away but the infrastructure to support all these people moving away hasn't been upgraded to support that influx. Heck in my area, port credit, there's a HUGE patch of land that used to belong to Texaco, they're building a community that will have about 2500 housing units. That includes townhomes, mid rise, high rise. That a ******** of people who are going to be added to an already busy artery (Lakeshore rd near MIssissauga rd) I haven't seen any improvements in infrastructure although they've already started to dig up the area.
    So to cross the Credit River you will have Lakeshore and then QEW and then Dundas. Another couple of thousand heading to work and back everyday.

  17. #37

    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Mike View Post
    I'll never going to take a 'staff report' from the city of anywhere -- particularly Toronto -- as gospel.

    https://www.therecord.com/news-story...le-collisions/
    Here's another one for you to add to your list of "I've never seen a study contrary to that, that I chose to believe". Of course it's a government stat so probably a lie. Especially since it's federal government and you hate Trudeau. Because that's how stats work.

    https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehicl...5-1201.htm#s38

    33% of fatally injured pedestrians were at-fault for the crash

    Again, the big variable is how accurately police assign blame. Here's two instances where they were quick to jump to the defense of drivers and turned out to be wrong:
    https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...om-samson.html

    And in this one they looked at the video, which clearly shows vehicular assault, and figured they needed to find out what happened beforehand to see if it was justified!
    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/0..._11654810.html

    War on the car, my ***!
    Last edited by fastar1; 06-14-2018 at 02:47 PM.
    The odd times I felt I'd approached the truth, it rested on the premise that people are essentially good and smart.

  18. #38
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    Re: Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

    Quote Originally Posted by nobbie48 View Post
    So to cross the Credit River you will have Lakeshore and then QEW and then Dundas. Another couple of thousand heading to work and back everyday.
    Yeah, and they're making QEW wider.

    But lakeshore in port credit is already gridlocked most mornings, adding 2k cars to the mix (i'm putting less than one vehicle per household) will do nothing to alleviate that. I think one thing that is a problem for that area is a lack of service road over the Credit river (to make it a continuous one)
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