Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots | GTAMotorcycle.com

Not just motorcycle riders are in danger of cagers / idiots

mimico_polak

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Seems like every day we read another article / thread about a rider being injured / killed, but in addition to that, I cannot believe the amount of carnage on our roads this year for pedestrians and cyclists being killed on what seems like a regular basis!

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...lled-in-collision-at-bloor-and-st-george.html

What the hell is going on? I am fully aware statistically there are a LOT more pedestrians and cyclists, and know that a lot of them are to blame (at least partially) for being in the road where they shouldn't be...but this is getting scary to actually go out and ride on the road.

Sad to hear about all of this carnage, and personally I've no clue what can be done to limit/mitigate it further. I see on Lakeshore east of Royal York they've added fully separated bike lanes on the south side (2 directions) which I think is a great step, but then of course you lose parking on that side.

Not sure what can be done, but this is something that's really coming to the attention of many Torontonians.
 
I just spent a week in Copenhagen. Paradise. Part of their solution is to tax cars at ~150%!!! Lots of bicycles and the transit system is very well developed. You can take the bike on the subways and trains without hassle. Everyone is fit, sexy and happy.
 
We've created a situation where drivers are vilified, and pedestrians and bicyclists are left with the impression that they are never responsible for anything.

Pedestrians cross streets with impunity knowing that the car driver will always be held at fault. Bicyclists run red lights knowing that they will never be ticketed.

The profusion of smartphones, both by drivers and pedestrians, does not help.

That our streets were designed without consideration for keeping bicyclists separate from traffic, does not help. Creating bicycle lanes out of nothing just results in anger and frustration because the space has to come from somewhere.

I'm not sure the transit lanes that York Region has been building (examples: Davis Drive in Newmarket, Highway 7 through Concord) are the right solution. The transitway is in the middle of the road, forcing all transit riders to cross traffic to get to them. Those roads now have narrow traffic lanes with unyielding concrete on either side. Bicyclists now either have to use the sidewalk (illegal?) or risk going in those narrow traffic lanes with NO escape if something goes wrong. I don't like those roads on my motorcycle. Too much concrete ... no escape paths.

There are probably some cases where bicycle traffic could be diverted through parks or alleys as opposed to along main roads. (Parts of Brampton allow for this.) There are probably other cases where the sidewalk could be split into a bicycle path and a pedestrian path. (Some mainstreets in Brampton have done this, too.) In an existing built up area where the space is already allocated ... not so easy.

Only way pedestrians could be coaxed into paying attention is to hit them in the wallet: ticket them for jaywalking.

Only way bicyclists could be coaxed into paying attention is to hit them in the wallet: ticket them for running stop signs and the like.

IIRC New York City tried that as part of their own "vision zero" campaign, and met with huge public outcry. It seems that the concept that a pedestrian or bicyclist could break the law and be ticketed for it ... isn't politically palatable. We have to be promoting all things "green", and seemingly that means not writing tickets to lawbreaking pedestrians or bicyclists.

But on the other hand ... I recently spent a couple of weeks in Italy. Traffic in Rome seems chaotic at first ... but becomes predictable. Stand at the side of a road ... cars keep going. Make eye contact with an upcoming car driver and start walking ... they stop, and the next car stops, and they let the pedestrian across. You don't just walk into traffic with impunity because you'll get smoked by a car. Many town centers are walking areas; vehicle traffic for making local deliveries is allowed but you have to actually be making a delivery to a business in the affected area - can't just be driving through. There are few bicycles in Rome but countless scooters ... which all lane-split and filter in every conceivable way, and the car drivers give them room to do it. That would require a major change in attitude for it to ever happen here.

Heavy trucks in Europe all have side-guards to prevent errant pedestrians and bicyclists from getting in front of the rear wheels. Heavy trucks in North America ... don't have that.
 
I just spent a week in Copenhagen. Paradise. Part of their solution is to tax cars at ~150%!!! Lots of bicycles and the transit system is very well developed. You can take the bike on the subways and trains without hassle. Everyone is fit, sexy and happy.

Can't do that here. The automobile industry runs Ontario. There is no way there will be 150% on cars here or everyone will be unemployed.
 
Can't do that here. The automobile industry runs Ontario. There is no way there will be 150% on cars here or everyone will be unemployed.
Not just that, need reliable and quick alternative modes of transportation. Transit is not the best especially north of Toronto in the GTA. Rest of Ontario must be worse. It needs to improve significantly first.

If I were to take the transit to work, it would take 2 hours which includes a 10 min walk to the bus stop, multiple bus transfers, and double digit stops. In contrast, it takes me 25 min by car/bike.
 
The number of cycle and pedestrian accidents is awful. Like motorcyclists, pedestrians and cyclists are vulnerable road users. Unlike most motorcyclists, they have very little respect for the law OR safely using roads as a vulnerable user.

I think the solution is more education (lots of public service announcements) and periodic enforcement blitzes. Maybe it's time that cyclists passed a basic written test in order to use the road -- at least they would have to know the rules.
 
I just spent a week in Copenhagen. Paradise. Part of their solution is to tax cars at ~150%!!! Lots of bicycles and the transit system is very well developed. You can take the bike on the subways and trains without hassle. Everyone is fit, sexy and happy.

I see two major factors.

1) Distances are greater in North America

2) We have had the blessings of space and resources for so long we take them for granted. Relatively cheap land, gas, etc. Europeans have to use more common sense and it gets built into their infrastructure.
 
Build public transportation using the 150% tax money. Problem solved.


I'm well aware this won't work... Just saying it's nice to see how a different country took a very different turn at the beginning of urbanization and it worked out way better.

The number of cycle and pedestrian accidents is awful. Like motorcyclists, pedestrians and cyclists are vulnerable road users. Unlike most motorcyclists, they have very little respect for the law OR safely using roads as a vulnerable user.

I think the solution is more education (lots of public service announcements) and periodic enforcement blitzes. Maybe it's time that cyclists passed a basic written test in order to use the road -- at least they would have to know the rules.

I know cyclists break laws, but most times they are mowed down from the back while riding by the curb. Running a stop all way is not what's killing cyclists.

Sure have cyclists do a written test, but then drivers should also have to do a test before driving in Toronto. Many drivers have no idea what the bicycle traffic laws are. I had drivers tell me to user the sidewalk instead of the road.
 
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I work in downtown Toronto and commute by car or motorcycle. The problems I see on a daily basis are generally in the hands of the pedestrians and cyclists. They seem to believe that they live in a bubble and can do whatever the heck they would like. The amount of pedestrians who jay walk across major roads when there is a crosswalk within 20 feet is staggering. The cyclists I see seem to want all the advantages of being a vehicle on the road with none of the responsibilities. The bike couriers are the worst but even the cyclists who rent the downtown bikes are basically either clueless or just ignore all rules of the road. Since pedestrians and cyclists will pretty much never be charged they just keep on keeping on.. :)

In the realms of never going to happen, I'd love to see any cyclist who wants to ride on the road be licensed and insured. Just like a car or motorcycle. I know it will never happen...



Build public transportation using the 150% tax money. Problem solved.


I'm well aware this won't work... Just saying it's nice to see how a different country took a very different turn at the beginning of urbanization and it worked out way better.



I know cyclists break laws, but most times they are mowed down from the back while riding by the curb. Running a stop all way is not what's killing cyclists.

Sure have cyclists do a written test, but then drivers should also have to do a test before driving in Toronto. Many drivers have no idea what the bicycle traffic laws are. I had drivers tell me to user the sidewalk instead of the road.
 
I believe the real problem here is the infrastructure in Toronto and the GTA is so very poorly designed. This includes everything from road space, transit, and sidewalks. Everything it seems was done with just the minimum required space. Now they are taking that which was used by cars and section off for bike lanes, then more section off for transit. It is ridiculous, squeezing more into less space. It doesn't work and the frustration levels of commuters is rising and people are more concerned about pushing through it and making bad decisions.

I haven't driven downtown much in the past couple of years but more recently have been down there and the sidewalks are completely crowded. Bike lanes really need a separate physical spaces away from cars. This whole idea of painting a lines on the road for bike lanes is a joke. All of this is just going to get worse as they keep planning the same way all over the GTA and there doesn' look like they are truly addressing any long term issues. The city is heading towards what looks like complete grid lock.


Sent from the moon!
 
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I know cyclists break laws, but most times they are mowed down from the back while riding by the curb. Running a stop all way is not what's killing cyclists.

Sure have cyclists do a written test, but then drivers should also have to do a test before driving in Toronto. Many drivers have no idea what the bicycle traffic laws are. I had drivers tell me to user the sidewalk instead of the road.
I think you'll find in urban areas pedestrians and cyclists are at fault in a majority of collisions with cars - I've never seen a study contrary to that. I just read a study from Waterloo, they documented 71% of urban accidents to have been at fault for the cyclist.

Next tile you have a moment, stand at a busy intersection in Toronto. Count the cycling filter/passes, stopping, and right of way violations at any intersection. A clearer picture may emerge.
 
Council doesn't have a war on the car, they have a war on Everything!

I swear they must use a stupidity quotient to decide which projects to proceed with.

In the meantime the same Councillors get elected year after year.

What do they care? They get a driver to chauffeur them around, and a Metro pass which they can sell and make some extra $$$.

One example is Queens Quay West which is the bottleneck for the Martin Goodman trail (not sure if its been renamed) along the waterfront.
The city puts in a Streetcar right of way, taking up a huge portion of what was a four+ lane road, and leaves a small lane on either side for cars and bikes.
That was supposed to be the big bicycle route. WTF?! So now, they've gone back and redesigned it. From north to south now, you have two way car traffic, then two way streetcar traffic, then two way bicycle, rollerblade, ski blades, skateboards, etc. which seems like it could have been planned a little better from the beginning.

p.s. what ever happened to Miller's idea of putting in green space along the waterfront? All I see now when I visit Toronto is row after row of Condos.
 
I think you'll find in urban areas pedestrians and cyclists are at fault in a majority of collisions with cars - I've never seen a study contrary to that. I just read a study from Waterloo, they documented 71% of urban accidents to have been at fault for the cyclist.

Next tile you have a moment, stand at a busy intersection in Toronto. Count the cycling filter/passes, stopping, and right of way violations at any intersection. A clearer picture may emerge.
Here's a study that shows when the right of way is known after a collision, pedestrians had the right of way 78% of the time (table 18 )
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/hl/bgrd/backgroundfile-81601.pdf

Do you have a copy of that Waterloo study to share?
 
lo_bike23.jpg


Hard to imagine a more gruesome death than under the wheels of that truck. RIP bicycle-lady. :(
 
Here's a study that shows when the right of way is known after a collision, pedestrians had the right of way 78% of the time (table 18 )
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/hl/bgrd/backgroundfile-81601.pdf

Do you have a copy of that Waterloo study to share?

Either way, pedestrians can be completely unpredictable with their actions which can't be perceived by other motorists etc. With cars you have some chance to guess what they might be up to with signals, which lane they are in etc.

I am sure we all have seen this situation with a pedestrian standing on the edge of the curb waiting for the light to switch to green, but doesn't cross, then you roll up wanting to make a turn, then suddenly they decide to move, no eye contact or anything. Yes spider sense should be tingling, and this doesn't make it right for either, but there seems to be 2 very distinct behaviors which clash.
 
Spent a fair amount of time downtown last week. I swear people are zombies. It’s not just phones. It’s just people walking around with no clear direction, cutting in front of others only to stop or slow down etc.

Watched many people walk in front of traffic, against red lights or just in the middle of the street and then stare down a driver that honks their horn etc.

It’s like they assume they have the right away. Do that enough times, luck will run out.

And drivers are no better.

Plenty of drivers rushing to get in front of someone else, only to end up stopped in the middle of an intersection.

Lots of folks losing their cool. Blowing horns. Cutting off others and won’t even look at who they are doing it to.

It doesn’t surprise me one bit.

This was around Union Station and within 20 minutes walking around ACC, some hotels and then to Rogers Centre over the course of a few days.

Didn’t matter the time of day. People are jerks.




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Wow, today I had something to take care off so I drove downtown for the first time in a while. It took me almost an hour from Bloor and Jarvis to Queen's quay and Spadina. It's insane to believe that there will be a vehicle based solution in the future. It's only going to get worse, way worse.

Even if all the bike lanes, all bus lanes, HOV lanes, even sidewalks, and everything that is taking up road space is removed cars are still not feasible. The only solution is a timely and convenient mass trabsit that funnels people from the whole GTA. What else could possibly work? If Ontario would have a good track I record for using money wisely and efficiently I would have no problem paying more taxes, fees and tolls to found more trains and subways, but at the moment it seems the government mismanages money at an alarming rate.
 
The real question IMO is what has changed. Numbers have been going up over the years. Distraction and aggression are the answer IMO.

-Distraction due to people texting, both pedestrians and drivers.
-Disobeying traffic laws due to aggression.
-Aggression due to congestion (and driving frustration) and new traffic rules just making congestion worse.

Want to fix it:
-Distracted walking rules (looking at phone while crossing the street=fine). Safety blitz on it (lots of tickets).
-Ticket pedestrians for crossing against lights, middle of intersection (double up if on the fines).
-Ticket cyclists more.
-Really crack down on distracted drivers, I mean really with a heavy fist.
-Sync lights to get traffic flowing better, do all we can to get things moving.
-Fix the King street disaster (more driver frustration and aggression).
-Remove dumb new rules like having to wait until the pedestrian fully cross the street (should be clears your side of the street).
-Increase some speed limits in certain areas (again traffic moving).

Many new bike lanes, new rules, etc. just increases aggression--sort of counter-intuitive but making drivers more angry is not solving anything. Reducing the speed limits everywhere (like they want to do) will also just add to the aggression.

More transit is a great idea (I do support it, it is a long term fix) but it will take a long time and $$$$$ so it is not a short term fix. Lower aggression and distraction, that is the answer today...transit later.
 
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Maybe part of the problem is that pedestrians and cyclists have a false sense of security because politicians talk-up bike lanes, share-the-road and Euro-style pedestrian malls so much that they -- the pedestrians and cyclists -- think everyone is on same page and that this Shangri-La actually exists here in Canada.
 
^ realistically even if all the above were successfully implemented traffic would not improve. There's just too many cars for the roads we have. There's no pedestrians or cyclists on the 401/qew/Gardiner. They still slow down to almost a standstill.
 

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