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Track days, lawyers and lawsuits
- Thread starter TK4
- Start date
This is a fascinating story with potentially huge repercussions for club racers and track day riders.
If you watch the footage of Daniel Kim's crash
(here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsnDOOk33RY ) he is clearly off the racing line and could have been avoided.
A series of sandbags 6ft or so off the racing surface installed by Lagunga Seca to minimize water erosion are the crux of Kim's lawsuit against Keigwin’s, the track day provider the day of Kim's crash. Kim cites gross negligence on the part of Keigwin’s because hitting those sandbags resulted in Kim's massive injuries that left him unable to walk for more than a year.
A couple key points to note: Kim apparently missed the riders meeting and signed the standard waiver form.
Will be interesting to see the trial outcome.
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If you watch the footage of Daniel Kim's crash
(here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsnDOOk33RY ) he is clearly off the racing line and could have been avoided.
A series of sandbags 6ft or so off the racing surface installed by Lagunga Seca to minimize water erosion are the crux of Kim's lawsuit against Keigwin’s, the track day provider the day of Kim's crash. Kim cites gross negligence on the part of Keigwin’s because hitting those sandbags resulted in Kim's massive injuries that left him unable to walk for more than a year.
A couple key points to note: Kim apparently missed the riders meeting and signed the standard waiver form.
Will be interesting to see the trial outcome.
Sent from my [device_name] using GTAMotorcycle.com mobile app
ddusseld
Well-known member
It seems that way at first blush. But those sand bags are really close to the track. I hope for the organizers sake that the sand bags are there for actual races and that they mentioned them in the riders meeting. I fully believe that the waiver should protect the organizers but I can see how this can be perceived as negligence. It will be very interesting to see how it plays out.
More than that, he's been trying to develop an enclosed, self-balancing motorcycle for a while. That project's not going too well, but anything that can highlight the risk of regular motorcycles helps his business.
My understanding is that those sandbags are placed there before the rainy season (winter), stay there the entire rainy season, and are removed before the dry season (summer). They can not be removed during the rainy season because what happens if it starts raining *during* the track day ... they are still needed for erosion control. Rain during the dry season is sufficiently sparse as to allow them to be removed.
The rider in question evidently had at least 10 laps to see those sandbags before he crashed in the corner where they are placed.
It's the rider's responsibility to ride according to conditions. If that means taking a notch or two of speed off in specific locations in order to ensure that one does not crash in those specific locations ... so be it.
I think the real reason for the lawsuit is to postpone the bankruptcy of the litigant's failing business.
The rider in question evidently had at least 10 laps to see those sandbags before he crashed in the corner where they are placed.
It's the rider's responsibility to ride according to conditions. If that means taking a notch or two of speed off in specific locations in order to ensure that one does not crash in those specific locations ... so be it.
I think the real reason for the lawsuit is to postpone the bankruptcy of the litigant's failing business.
^ They have to be positioned like that, up to the edge of the track, for erosion control if it's raining. It doesn't really show on camera, but it's a pretty steep hill there.
Bear in mind that we don't have to do anything comparable on this side of the continent because we have a climate that encourages grass to grow thickly, and that is its own erosion control. All of the racetracks in California and Arizona that I can think of, are in semiarid climates.
Bear in mind that we don't have to do anything comparable on this side of the continent because we have a climate that encourages grass to grow thickly, and that is its own erosion control. All of the racetracks in California and Arizona that I can think of, are in semiarid climates.
J_F
Guest
I get that Brian
have lived/worked in arid places
and watched entire roadways get washed away
when it eventually rains
as an armchair track QB
seems to me they should be moved away
before riders start taking full speed laps
I mean didn't Roberts et al
fight to have proper, safe run-off??
Laguna Seca? really??
N3WMAN
Well-known member
So then don't take full speed laps. It is not a race, and there is nothing to win.
J_F
Guest
so
go to track days
and be apprehensive
I'm fine on the street then
way I ride everyday
Controlled Course
should have some meaning
and it should mean
no sand bags tucked up to the pavement
to launch you
should you need a bit of run off
cuz you blew a corner
N3WMAN
Well-known member
It is a controlled course. The sandbags didn't jump out in front of the guy. They didn't move at all I reckon in the 10 laps previous that he rode right by them. They have a reason to be there, and that reason is not to deliberately harm a rider running off track.
Perhaps it was mentioned in the riders meeting. We don't know and nor does he because he missed it.
The bags are CLEARLY visible. If he felt it was a safety issue in any of the 10 laps previous to his crash he could have pulled off and voiced his concerns to the organizer.
There is zero guarantee when it comes to runoff. If you think the nice grass you see at the tracks around here is a smooth bed of pillows let me tell you it isn't.
Perhaps it was mentioned in the riders meeting. We don't know and nor does he because he missed it.
The bags are CLEARLY visible. If he felt it was a safety issue in any of the 10 laps previous to his crash he could have pulled off and voiced his concerns to the organizer.
There is zero guarantee when it comes to runoff. If you think the nice grass you see at the tracks around here is a smooth bed of pillows let me tell you it isn't.
Having runoff doesn’t mean you can ride without consequences. Plenty of riders have had massive crashes on nice flat runoff.
It is a controlled environment. I would imagine the sandbags were mentioned in the riders meeting (that the rider missed) and it’s also likely that the sandbags were there in the same place on all his previous laps.
The first laps should be sighting laps. Make note of where things are.
1st laps at Mosport? Take note, do not run wide in T4.
1st laps at Tremblant? T1 is scary, do not **** up T1.
1st laps at Laguna Seca? Do not run off T5.
There’s no such thing as a perfectly safe race track.
And don't run wide at the corner coming onto the front straight at either Shannonville or TMP. There is a concrete wall there.
Knock on wood but in all my years of racing or track days, I have never run off the track except while either crashing or grenading something.
Knock on wood but in all my years of racing or track days, I have never run off the track except while either crashing or grenading something.
This article says the bags are to slow cars down and mentions nothing about rain.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianey...ansportation-ceo-about-mobility/#1a06f13558c4
It also mentions the part about avoiding a slower rider, which is an outright lie or at least severe judgment error on his part when you watch the video. He’s back on the gas at that point. Like his throttle was unexpectedly opened.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianey...ansportation-ceo-about-mobility/#1a06f13558c4
It also mentions the part about avoiding a slower rider, which is an outright lie or at least severe judgment error on his part when you watch the video. He’s back on the gas at that point. Like his throttle was unexpectedly opened.
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J_F
Guest
this is civil law
decision will be based on the preponderance of evidence
based on what is available in this thread, the video
plaintiff has ALL the evidence, all a jury needs to do is watch the vid
defendant has nothing but a useless waiver
and a report that plaintiff did not attend the drivers meeting
and no info if the sandbags were discussed or not
second point is damages
guy couldn't walk for a year
there are damages
not saying he is not a jerk for ligating his own shortcomings
but based on the info available here to consider
plaintiff will win, cost of judgment to follow
decision will be based on the preponderance of evidence
based on what is available in this thread, the video
plaintiff has ALL the evidence, all a jury needs to do is watch the vid
defendant has nothing but a useless waiver
and a report that plaintiff did not attend the drivers meeting
and no info if the sandbags were discussed or not
second point is damages
guy couldn't walk for a year
there are damages
not saying he is not a jerk for ligating his own shortcomings
but based on the info available here to consider
plaintiff will win, cost of judgment to follow
That article reads more like a paid advertisement than it does an objective piece of journalism.
Sand bags used to slow down cars?? That’s a new one....
If it wasn't the sandbags it would have been the weeds. If it wasn't the weeds, it would have been the sandy surface. If there was gravel run-off areas, it would have been that. Some people just have it in their moral make-up to sue when they get hurt while voluntarily doing something risky. It's what killed dirt and trail riding in Ontario back in the 1980s.
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