About time
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Return of Ford Nation
- Thread starter Baggsy
- Start date
About time
Irrelevant for the purpose of electing a new person as the next leader, only relevant for an incumbent.
A fair point, but still irrelevant when talking about anyone aside from Wynne in this race. I do not judge any newcomer by the past practice of any party, or by the actions of their predecessors regardless of party affiliation. Listen to each leaders statements and make a decision accordingly without bias - it's ingrained bias and unwillingness to change ones mind (IE, people will vote for "their party" regardless of what anyone says, even if the leader is a complete tool, "just because") that's got us into the mess we are in today.
Honestly, this province is seriously hosed in many respects and the most genuine statement any prospective leader could make would be to admit that and say that there's going to be painful times ahead needed to fix them.
But nah, that doesn't get people elected. Making promises that either are impossible to fulfil or will financially dump is deeper into the hole sure gets votes though, doesn't it?
In this respect, Ford is cutting cheques already that his bank is going to have difficulty cashing.
I'm still not convinced I won't have to vote for him in the end as the lesser of all evils, but taking my own medicine...I'm still listening and haven't yet made up my mind beyond the fact that I won't vote for Wynne. That leaves either Ford or Horwath.
Or possibly just not voting at all. Certainly my last choice, but I will not give my vote to anyone with whom I think isn't qualified or has a platform that is just rainbows and butterflies, but not actually anchored in reality. IMHO Ford is in that realm right now.
Voting for the person does not make sense to me. Imo, the party will always do what the party has always done to some varying degrees. Add in the fact they are all Class A liars and again i'll look to the sky and say "whats the point?"
They move their lips and all i hear is "service cuts", "new taxes", "magic tricks".
They move their lips and all i hear is "service cuts", "new taxes", "magic tricks".
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Mad Mike
Well-known member
Not so, if these are the same for challenger and incumbent, it becomes a moot point. In this case the incumbent has the bad record. +1 for challenger.
I don't agree, the opposite is true. Voting for what a party leader based on promises and charisma got us where we are today -- this is voting without aligning to party docterines. A candidate might campaign and win with charisma & bold face lies -- their actions are tempered by the party at large when elected and you to get a full dose of their party docterine.[/quote]
This is correct.
I don't think you can draw that conclusion yet, Ford's platform includes balancing the budget, the other options.... [/quote]
That's your call to make. For me it's never that hard as I tend to vote based on ideals -- not promises. If none of the leaders meet your approval, it might be worth looking at how the part has historically managed the province.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
True for all but Liberals. Liberals are the only party that does not tolerate free voting among MP and MPPs - voting is always in support of the leader, not the party ideology. This means Liberals will shapeshift to support the leader's views -- they can shift right to be equal to PCs (Cretien) or left of NDP (Wynne).
One thing is pretty consistent when there is a regime change. For Ontario Liberals: the economy is a mess, for PCs: the electorate has gone too long without presents.
Tell that to Harper.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Wrong, at least look for some facts before posting nonsense. Harper Conservative MPs were far more likely to vote against (vote free) than MPs from other parties. Globe and Mail analysed the 150,000+ votes between 2011 and 2013, summary here:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-their-own-party/article8141646/?from=8156279
Liberals rarely vote free. Despite their stated pledge to allow free voting, Liberal MPs do so under the threat of political castration.
Watch how many people blindly vote Liberal again in this election despite the disaster that has been McGuinty and Wynne for the last 14 years. Anyone who is still willing to believe (despite 90% of what's been promised and spouted over those 14+ years turning out to be bunk, not to mention the terrible decisions that's led us to where we are) that anything they're going to say NOW is suddenly going to hold true, well, there's your problem.
These are classic examples of people who are just voting liberal because "It's their party", not because it makes any freakin' sense anymore.
So, I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
Sure, but he's also made crazy claims that he's going to do that without massive cuts to government spending, or layoffs.
So, unless money starts furiously spraying out of his butt if he's elected, where's that money going to come from?
Again, anyone can say whatever they want in an election, but reality catches up to them once they're the ones looking at the books a few months later. I'm not sure Doug is anywhere close to reality at this point.
So much this. If there was ever a PM who had his parliament under his thumb (and tried to make it harder for citizens to vote on top of that, his was it.
Oh how conveniently people have forgotten about that already.
Parliamentary voting was just one thing (and he was no saint in that regard) but there was plenty of other situations where he was overtly controlling.
Lets not forget when he tried to mute the scientific community for 9 years because their observations and reports were not convenient to his desires. Or when he did the same on the Abortion debate. Or when he did the same to diplomats. Or the military. Or when he used the Canada Revenue Agency to mysteriously audit those who didn't agree with him as a way to shut them up and stop others from even thinking about crossing him.
I can keep going....
Lots of nice clicky links there factually backing up my arguments, as well.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Stop - don't keep going.
Citing references from the far-left is pretty likely to turn up negative things on any/everything PC. All you see there is the PC mandate unrolled as advertised. Think about it for a minute, you have a civil service with ingrained Liberal bias undermining the current gov't agenda and mandate. Having them project gov't business through the lens of the current gov't seems appropriate. Muzzles are only needed when a dog barks too much.
Funny thing happened since Trudeau declared everyone unmuzzled -- https://www.nationalobserver.com/20...government-rules-and-muzzling-scientists-says
Sorry that history fails your argument in this case, but it doesn't change it.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I get your point. The question for the Liberal loyal is ... what is a Liberal today? Is it near center or way left. Other parties (PC & NDP) faithful don't deal with shapeshifting -- this is a Liberal loyal problem only. Hopefully enough evaluate all party options and then decide whether they are in fact Liberals as the party sits today.
don't expect him to Hudak the election by announcing the cost control measures before the election. There are lots of tools available. His big line is efficiencies, things like amalgamating gov't purchasing, merging school boards, making smart decisions on make vs buy. Attrition can be a big saver too. Nobody gets laid off, gov't shrinks as employees retire or leave.
Purchase based on value, not political agenda. One good example of waste is Presto. An off the shelf deployment used by transits across Europe was a $140million venture -- tried and true, ready for prime time. Instead the Liberals chose to make another home-gown fiasco (like e-Health) -- $255mil to start and according to the auditor general will end up costing $700million when complete. Don't do those things.
Freeze public sector pay until it is better aligned with the private sector. Do this, just don't make it a campaign promise.
Stop using gov't payroll to offset losses in private sector jobs. Instead, create incentives for capital investment and let the private sector make more jobs.
Unload the 650+ government buildings that the liberals have held wile vacant for an average of 8 years.
Transition things the gov't need not do into the private sector (weed sales, liquor sales, ).
Return to using technology for things like licence sticker renewals - a kiosk costs 40K over 5 years and does the work of 3 people -- total savings per year: $140K per kiosk.
Those are just a few options that could save a few billion.[/quote]
We will have to wait and see.
I'm watching to see if Wynne starts feeding the current government poison pills, to try and mess up her successor.
I'm not saying that she's done so yet, but I'm watching. This new budget will tell.
When I was young and naive I never would have thought that someone would do something so stupid, and ruin so many people's lives, just to get themselves ahead.
Now that I'm old and cynical, I watch out for it. I'm still disgusted when it happens, but it no longer shocks me into inaction, while I try and figure out why the hell someone would do something like that.
It's one thing to get ahead, by being better than your opponent, and completely another, to create wide swaths of destruction to pull them down.
I'm not saying that she's done so yet, but I'm watching. This new budget will tell.
When I was young and naive I never would have thought that someone would do something so stupid, and ruin so many people's lives, just to get themselves ahead.
Now that I'm old and cynical, I watch out for it. I'm still disgusted when it happens, but it no longer shocks me into inaction, while I try and figure out why the hell someone would do something like that.
It's one thing to get ahead, by being better than your opponent, and completely another, to create wide swaths of destruction to pull them down.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Already done.
1) Hydro. On a couple of fronts. One, she didn't get a mandate to privatize hydro, in fact she actually campaigned against this. This will be a costly in terms of finance and distraction. She also hid a huge amount of Provincial debt in the deal says the Auditor General, that will return to the province's books and still has to be fixed.
2) Stealing from Health Care spending. Wynne chiseled billions from health care spending in order to finance her agenda - a dumb mistake considering it was the hallmark of every terminated regime since Bill Davis. The next regime needs to fix that to the tune of about 8 billion over the next 4 years.
3) Minimum wage.
4) Pharmacare for under 25.
--- upcoming Hail Marys ----
5) Dental-for-all plan will be really expensive.
6) Eliminating co-pays on medication will be really expensive.
7) Any public sector deals that need to be signed between now and election day.
You call them poison pills, I call them stink bombs. Liberals always unload them by the truckload in the year before right before elections. They eaither buy votes or create a prickly path for a new regime.
Unfortunately 4,5 and 6 resonate with a lot of people in the province and if there’s even any remote possibility of that coming to fruition that might be enough to swing things. Besides, they aren’t bad ideas per se, just need to see the details of how they will be funded.
We will have to wait and see.[/QUOTE]
Don't be making liberals any smarter.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I agree, any handout resonates -- how does free groceries sound?
The problem is affordability, these goodies are not free, you pay for them through tax increases. The package of spending Wynne has already delivered PLUS is impossible to finance, she knows the additional promises make things more impossible.
So why make them when you know they are impossible? There's only one answer - they are election tricks. The question is, will the electorate get tricked again.
If they are impossible how come the UK/France has them....except free dental care but even there I think kids get free dental. We have a decent health care system which is crippled a little in those areas mentioned. There’s nothing wrong with trying to see if we can emulate those systems of other countries that benefit most citizens.
As for election tricks every party has their own favourite way of buying votes so this isn’t an exclusive thing.
Thanks, Captain Obvious.
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