How do you feel about the decline of petrol vehicles? | Page 25 | GTAMotorcycle.com

How do you feel about the decline of petrol vehicles?

Heck, lets go wild and double it, or triple it ... or maybe a 1$ for kWh doom and gloom to give the H2 time to catch up? ... LOL ... or you are thinking there will be so much publicly available H2 soon that it's price will drop like a rock? ... LOL2
 
And that is the argument for electricity....less than a dollar of electricity will take you 40km.
I get your point, but your'e over on the mileage by about 60%.

On a good day with no need for AC or heat, an EV will go about 3.5km on 1kwh of electricity. At today's rates of .14/kwh, that's about 4 cents/km, so for a buck you're gonna go 25KM.
 
On a good day with no need for AC or heat, an EV will go about 3.5km on 1kwh of electricity. At today's rates of .14/kwh, that's about 4 cents/km, so for a buck you're gonna go 25KM.

Not sure where you pulled those numbers out, but it's you that's wildly off, not 800over.

The 2011-2012 first gen Volt (the generation we own 2 of) has about 10kw usable and is factory rated for 55KM. That's 5.5KM/kwh.

In your situation of good day, no heat or AC requirement, I have personally gone 73KM on that same 10KW. That's 7.3KM/kwh.
 
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BTW, off peak electricity is <$0.07/kWh, as well. ;)
 
Not sure where you pulled those numbers out, but it's you that's wildly off, not 800over.

The 2011-2012 first gen Volt (the generation we own 2 of) has about 10kw usable and is factory rated for 55KM. That's 5.5KM/kwh.

In your situation of good day, no heat or AC requirement, I have personally gone 73KM on that same 10KW. That's 13KM/kwh.
I trust your numbers -- mine are based on GM's specs. Also remember, your 10KWh battery takes at least 12kwh of juice to charge, a 16kwh battery needs about 20kwh to charge (you have to pay for the losses in your charger). If you get 55km on a 10kwh battery, your mileage is 4.6km/kwh, if you got 73km, that would be 6.1km/kwh.

Fully charging a battery requires 20% more electricity than the battery can hold -- you buy the energy lost in charging. When you mention $0.07/kwh, you forgot to include delivery, regulatory, and HST costs. Where I live, Markham, off peak electricity costs $0.065/kwh for the juice + $0.044 delivery+regulatory + $0.014HST = $12.3 cents/kwh.

So, if we look at this again, my energy costs are on, likely low - I doubt anyone can do near 100% off peak charging. There may be a correction for your actual mileage -- All I had for data was EV averages, your Volt appears to be over delivering which is great for you.
 
Look for lots more of this

Manulife Real Estate has 23 Level 2 charging stations in Toronto, which they offer as a free amenity to their shoppers and tenants.

Just like they use cheap gas to draw shoppers free charging will be popular and look for more of these

parking-canopies.jpg
 
I trust your numbers -- mine are based on GM's specs.

For what vehicle? Like I said, the 2011-2012 Volt was factory rated for 55KM electric. It has 10.4kwh usable, to be exact.

That comes out to 5.28KM/kw, to be exact, not 3.5km/kw as you mentioned.

Plenty of real-world experieence shows that in the aforementioned "ideal" scenarios you mentioned, these ratings are easily exceeded often by 20% or more, raising the KM per KW figures even more.

And yes, I did the math wrong on my 73KM figure, ran them through the calculator backwards while I was in a rush to head out the door...corrected that.

Also remember, your 10KWh battery takes at least 12kwh of juice to charge

Fair enough argument, but if you do the math again using the amount consumed to charge (as opposed to what the vehicle actually utilized) that still comes out to 4.58KM/kw.

Fully charging a battery requires 20% more electricity than the battery can hold -- you buy the energy lost in charging. When you mention $0.07/kwh, you forgot to include delivery, regulatory, and HST costs. Where I live, Markham, off peak electricity costs $0.065/kwh for the juice + $0.044 delivery+regulatory + $0.014HST = $12.3 cents/kwh.

Again, not factual. At 120V there's about a 12% overhead, and at 240V that goes down to about 8%. This is as tested by many people in the EV community.

As for all the delivery fees, etc.....I am of the opinion that those don't necessarily count as you are paying for them anyways because you would still have electricity service to your house (and accordingly, those fees) regardless if you owned an EV or not. Yes, they may slide up a little because of increased consumption, but in the grand scheme of overall usage an EV will still only account for a fraction of the homes overall consumption anyways.

So, if we look at this again, my energy costs are on, likely low - I doubt anyone can do near 100% off peak charging.

As battery sizes grow charging will shift to almost exclusively off-peak, actually. Even with just our Volts and their smaller batteries we still both charge during off peak 95% of the time. The ONLY time I charge during mid pea or peak rates is if I know I'm going to be driving again later in the day and will need those kilowatts to avoid switching to gas - and even paying full on-peak rates, electric is still WAY cheaper than gas, so it makes financial sense.

If I had something like a Bolt/Tesla/etc where 99.9% of my days I'm still arriving home with plenty of kilowatts left in the battery there'd be absolutely no reason to be charging at anything BUT off peak, so yes, 100% off peak charging is a reality.
 
For what vehicle? Like I said, the 2011-2012 Volt was factory rated for 55KM electric. It has 10.4kwh usable, to be exact.

That comes out to 5.28KM/kw, to be exact, not 3.5km/kw as you mentioned.

Plenty of real-world experieence shows that in the aforementioned "ideal" scenarios you mentioned, these ratings are easily exceeded often by 20% or more, raising the KM per KW figures even more.

And yes, I did the math wrong on my 73KM figure, ran them through the calculator backwards while I was in a rush to head out the door...corrected that.



Fair enough argument, but if you do the math again using the amount consumed to charge (as opposed to what the vehicle actually utilized) that still comes out to 4.58KM/kw.



Again, not factual. At 120V there's about a 12% overhead, and at 240V that goes down to about 8%. This is as tested by many people in the EV community.

As for all the delivery fees, etc.....I am of the opinion that those don't necessarily count as you are paying for them anyways because you would still have electricity service to your house (and accordingly, those fees) regardless if you owned an EV or not. Yes, they may slide up a little because of increased consumption, but in the grand scheme of overall usage an EV will still only account for a fraction of the homes overall consumption anyways.



As battery sizes grow charging will shift to almost exclusively off-peak, actually. Even with just our Volts and their smaller batteries we still both charge during off peak 95% of the time. The ONLY time I charge during mid pea or peak rates is if I know I'm going to be driving again later in the day and will need those kilowatts to avoid switching to gas - and even paying full on-peak rates, electric is still WAY cheaper than gas, so it makes financial sense.

If I had something like a Bolt/Tesla/etc where 99.9% of my days I'm still arriving home with plenty of kilowatts left in the battery there'd be absolutely no reason to be charging at anything BUT off peak, so yes, 100% off peak charging is a reality.
There is a lot to go over.

First: Calculating mileage. You are using the wrong denominator in your calculations. The denominator is the number of Kwh used to charge the battery as measured by your power meter -- not the battery's capacity.

Next: Calculating Charging Overhead. This is a difficult number to pinpoint because it varies based on a lot of parameters making it extremely hard to average. The best study I found was done by the state of Vermont who studied charging losses on their public charge stations. I tend to look at scientific collection and analysis to be more realistic than a bunch of forum contributor's account - particularly when measuring has so many parameters. Vermont measured charging efficiency at 70-85%. Also check this out, it's a real world example of where manufacturer's lab specs don't play out. https://www.teslarati.com/ekm-digital-submeter-measures-ev-charging-efficiency/ is a very high efficiency charger that delivers 85%. I settled on 20% as that seemed reasonable. 8 to 12% losses might be possible in a lab, unlikely in real life.

Finally: Energy cost. The 'extra fees' and taxes not already included in your bill, they are metered to your consumption. If I use 100Kwh of 0.65kwh juice to charge a car, I'm paying the utility 12.6cents/kwh - there's no way around delivery and tax.

There is no argument that EVs are way cheaper to operate. WAY CHEAPER. My point is that exaggerating the savings only serves to undermine the credibility of an already credible argument.
 
I get your point, but your'e over on the mileage by about 60%.

On a good day with no need for AC or heat, an EV will go about 3.5km on 1kwh of electricity. At today's rates of .14/kwh, that's about 4 cents/km, so for a buck you're gonna go 25KM.

I guess it's pointless to tell you, that you are way off regarding every single number in your post .... But I guess some of you guys just don't care much for accuracy as far as those things go. One must just wonder why???
 
It will be really interesting to see what happens to the price and supply of gas when alternatives become more in demand.
 
It will be really interesting to see what happens to the price and supply of gas when alternatives become more in demand.
I think the more interesting thing will be watching gov't find ways to replace taxes they currently collect at the pump.
 
Haven't you read about all the delivery charges for electricity etc? They'll sell more electricity and still charge debt repayment and transmission charges and not using enough charges and using too much charges....they'll get their money.
 
There is no argument that EVs are way cheaper to operate. WAY CHEAPER. My point is that exaggerating the savings only serves to undermine the credibility of an already credible argument.

But you understand that some of us speaking from the point of actually owning such vehicles, therefore we know what we actually pay on monthly basis. What exactly do you think is in it for us to exaggerate the savings??? I don't get it .... You don't believe what we say, don't buy one, but pls for the sake of others who are trying to learn, stop spreading FUD.
 
I think the more interesting thing will be watching gov't find ways to replace taxes they currently collect at the pump.

And that is a fair argument to have, as long as such "fee" or formula is fair. Most reasonable EV owners would not have a problem with it as far as I know. I cannot be a form of penalty which would make zero sense at all.
 
Let the battle rage but personally I'd trust Panasonic for sourcing


Volkswagen will equip 16 plants to produce electric vehicles by the end of 2022. (MICHAEL SOHN / THE ASSOCIATED PRESS FILE PHOTO)
By CHRISTOPH RAUWALDBloomberg
CHRIS REITER
Tues., March 13, 2018
Volkswagen AG secured 20 billion euros ($25 billion U.S.) in battery supplies to underpin an aggressive push into electric cars in the coming years, putting pressure on Tesla Inc. as it struggles with production issues for the mainstream Model 3.

The world’s largest carmaker will equip 16 factories to produce electric vehicles by the end of 2022, compared with three currently, Volkswagen said Tuesday in Berlin.

The German manufacturer’s plans to build as many as 3 million of the cars a year by 2025 is backstopped by deals with suppliers including Samsung SDI Co., LG Chem Ltd. and Contemporary Amperex Technology Ltd. for batteries in Europe and China.

With the powerpack deliveries secured for its two biggest markets, a deal for North America will follow shortly, Volkswagen said. In total, the Wolfsburg-based automaker has said it plans to purchase about 50 billion euros in batteries as part of its electric-car push, which includes three new models in 2018 with dozens more following.

Volkswagen’s battery plans compare to Tesla’s $17.5 billion worth of purchase obligations, primarily related to buying lithium-ion cells from Panasonic, according to a recent filing. Volkswagen called its battery tender one of the biggest purchasing initiatives in the auto industry.

As of next year, the 12-brand group will roll out a new battery-powered model “virtually every month,” Chief Executive Officer Matthias Mueller said at the company’s annual press conference. “This is how we intend to offer the largest fleet of electric vehicles in the world.”

https://www.thestar.com/business/20...5-billion-investment-in-battery-supplies.html
 
Let the battle rage but personally I'd trust Panasonic for sourcing
Do you really want a Samsung battery powered car ? :rolleyes:

Volkswagen will equip 16 plants to produce electric vehicles by the end of 2022. (MICHAEL SOHN / THE ASSOCIATED PRESS FILE PHOTO)
By CHRISTOPH RAUWALDBloomberg
CHRIS REITER
Tues., March 13, 2018
Volkswagen AG secured 20 billion euros ($25 billion U.S.) in battery supplies to underpin an aggressive push into electric cars in the coming years, putting pressure on Tesla Inc. as it struggles with production issues for the mainstream Model 3.

The world’s largest carmaker will equip 16 factories to produce electric vehicles by the end of 2022, compared with three currently, Volkswagen said Tuesday in Berlin.

The German manufacturer’s plans to build as many as 3 million of the cars a year by 2025 is backstopped by deals with suppliers including Samsung SDI Co., LG Chem Ltd. and Contemporary Amperex Technology Ltd. for batteries in Europe and China.

With the powerpack deliveries secured for its two biggest markets, a deal for North America will follow shortly, Volkswagen said. In total, the Wolfsburg-based automaker has said it plans to purchase about 50 billion euros in batteries as part of its electric-car push, which includes three new models in 2018 with dozens more following.

Volkswagen’s battery plans compare to Tesla’s $17.5 billion worth of purchase obligations, primarily related to buying lithium-ion cells from Panasonic, according to a recent filing. Volkswagen called its battery tender one of the biggest purchasing initiatives in the auto industry.

As of next year, the 12-brand group will roll out a new battery-powered model “virtually every month,” Chief Executive Officer Matthias Mueller said at the company’s annual press conference. “This is how we intend to offer the largest fleet of electric vehicles in the world.”
 
Sure why not. I don't suppose you have any serious reason or proof why cells for automotive market made by Samsung are somehow less of a cell than Panasonic one. (oh I see, you surely are referring to the Samsung phone issues, years ago? ... I forgot that the battery in a car is just a small version of my Samsung phone battery ... shaking my head here)

Secondly, we will see how many EV's will VW actually deliver worldwide to most markets (not just Norway or Cali). I am somewhat suspect it will not be 100 of thousands units per year, especially in 2019, 2020 or 2021 ... simply the battery capacity does not exist and will not exist at the time, if you add up all the OEM's units planned in next several years. Someone out there is lying. Impossible to know who, but we will find out soon when you walk into the VW dealership next year to order a car .... it will be a lot of ... "we will take your money now, but we cannot tell you exactly when you will get the car" ... I truly hope I am wrong.
 

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