How do you feel about the decline of petrol vehicles? | Page 10 | GTAMotorcycle.com

How do you feel about the decline of petrol vehicles?

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油井緋色;2542746 said:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/r17139

Found it. Laws are not my forte as there's lots of people ******** and terms. Is this active or is it garbage I found?
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9.34.4.1 for those interested. It's interesting that apartment buildings are exempt as these people are the least able to implement the changes themselves. A quick search didn't give me a good definition of apartment building.

Except as provided in Sentence (3), where vehicle parking spaces are located in a building, other than an apartment building, not less than 20% of the parking spaces shall be provided with electric vehicle supply equipment installed in accordance with Section 86 of the Electrical Safety Code adopted under Ontario Regulation 164/99 (Electrical Safety Code) made under the Electricity Act, 1998.

(2) The remaining parking spaces located in a building described in Sentence (1) shall be designed to permit the future installation of electric vehicle supply equipment that conforms to Section 86 of the Electrical Safety Code.
 
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131. Section 9.34. of Division B of the Regulation is amended by adding the following Subsection:

9.34.4. Electric Vehicle Charging

9.34.4.1. Electric Vehicle Charging Systems

(1) Except as provided in Sentence (3), where vehicle parking spaces are located in a building, other than an apartment building, not less than 20% of the parking spaces shall be provided with electric vehicle supply equipment installed in accordance with Section 86 of the Electrical Safety Code adopted under Ontario Regulation 164/99 (Electrical Safety Code) made under the Electricity Act, 1998.

(2) The remaining parking spaces located in a building described in Sentence (1) shall be designed to permit the future installation of electric vehicle supply equipment that conforms to Section 86 of the Electrical Safety Code.

(3) Except as provided in Sentence (6), where a house is served by a garage, carport or driveway, the following shall be installed to permit the future installation of electric vehicle supply equipment that conforms to Section 86 of the Electrical Safety Code:

(a) a minimum 200 amp panelboard,

(b) a conduit that is not less than 27 mm trade size and is equipped with a means to allow cables to be pulled into the conduit, and

(c) a square 4-11/16 in. trade size electrical outlet box.

(4) The electrical outlet box described in Clause (3)(c) shall be installed in the garage or carport or adjacent to the driveway.

(5) The conduit and electrical outlet box described in Clauses (3)(b) and (c) shall provide an effective barrier against the passage of gas and exhaust fumes.

(6) A house need not comply with Sentence (3) where it,

(a) is not connected to a distribution system, as defined in subsection 2 (1) of the Electricity Act, 1998, or

(b) is used or intended to be used as a seasonal recreational building described in Section 9.36.
 
I expect it to be a big retrofit item as buyers will take ev charging into account for purchasing/renting.
 
Plug in electric vehicles account for about 1% of total new vehicles in the U.S., gas powered vehicles aren't going anywhere for a while.
 
MacDoc said:
I expect it to be a big retrofit item as buyers will take ev charging into account for purchasing/renting.
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I could see buildings adding a few chargers and charging a premium for those spots (or even better add a few DCFC and people refill and then go park in their normal spot). Wholesale charger distribution with a charger for each spot will be so incredibly expensive that I can't ever see it happening as a retrofit.

Even this OBC change could be crazy expensive depending on the implementation requirements. Do they have to run copper from the street to a transformer upsized to allow 200 simultaneous chargers and wiring to every parking spot?. My guess is they are half pretending and 20% of the spots will have EVSE and the rest will have empty conduit run to each spot. It doesn't detail how much work is allowed if someone wants to install another EVSE in the future.
 
Riceburner said:
Looks to be Amended building code...for new buildings.
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Well, so much for taking a **** on the condo board guy.

There goes my evening activity.
 
油井緋色;2542707 said:
I do actually want an EV, especially due to working in the energy management field. At the same time, I live in a condo....and we have no charging stations. The **** do I do? lol

l
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And this is a scenario that will be played out time and time again as more condo dwellers and more condo's are being constructed. Where is a building full of people going to plug in their electric cars?


Another case for Hydrogen here folks, its the smarter way go Zero Emmisions motoring, and far more convenient.
 
I suspect some load sharing smart system that keeps total load within system parameters. The chargers are smart anyways.
New builds they likely need to build in at least level 2 charger capacity for each parking spot with perhaps some fast charge as a for pay.

This is a crazy income generator done correctly as it is basically shifting wealth from the fossil fuel industry stream ( $17 trillion a year ) to the electrical infrastructure.

with 300+ KM range daily charging not so critical as say a 100 km range.

Given that is an existing cash flow ....slicing bits off - even big bits off should be revenue neutral or even revenue cheaper at the consumer and infrastructure end.
 
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SunnY S said:
And this is a scenario that will be played out time and time again as more condo dwellers and more condo's are being constructed. Where is a building full of people going to plug in their electric cars?


Another case for Hydrogen here folks, its the smarter way go Zero Emmisions motoring, and far more convenient.
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I'm excited/terrified to see the outcome of a parking garage fire with a fleet of hydrogen fueled vehicles. Obviously they will be designed to attempt to burn gracefully, but 100's of tank of compressed flammable gas in a confined space never ends well.
 
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GreyGhost said:
Wholesale charger distribution with a charger for each spot will be so incredibly expensive that I can't ever see it happening as a retrofit.

Even this OBC change could be crazy expensive depending on the implementation requirements. Do they have to run copper from the street to a transformer upsized to allow 200 simultaneous chargers and wiring to every parking spot?.
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No, they run a single high voltage line to the vicinity of where the chargers are going to be installed, and then install a stepdown transformer - this is how any "bank" electricity situation is handled - they don't run 30 or 40+ individual 240V circuits from the main panel miles away, they just need a single high voltage one.

MacDoc said:
I suspect some load sharing smart system that keeps total load within system parameters. The chargers are smart anyways.
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Yep - smart EVSE's talk to each other and under times of peak usage can coordinate automatically to make the best use of the available amps.
 
I don't agree with you often, but ... until these PR masters crank out some more substance ... like what vehicles are we talking about on what platform(s), where do you intend to sell the cars (China and ZEV states only doesn't mean much) and where do you intend to get batteries ... it's just fluff for now.
 
but 100's of tank of compressed flammable gas in a confined space never ends well.
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You really should pay more attention :rolleyes:

First a garage fire full of vehicles with 20 gallons of highly flammable gasoline ...makes for exciting photos

Second ....solid state hydrogen storage does not require pressure or free hydrogen. When it gets to garage full stage...that's how it will be stored.
 
PrivatePilot said:
No, they run a single high voltage line to the vicinity of where the chargers are going to be installed, and then install a stepdown transformer - this is how any "bank" electricity situation is handled - they don't run 30 or 40+ individual 240V circuits from the main panel miles away, they just need a single high voltage one.
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The capacity isn't installed to the building. To add the load, many buildings will need to run more conduit and copper to the municipal connection, a transformer and then distribution. The distribution is the least of your problems.

In some condos I have worked on the electrical room isn't close to the street and the existing conduit is cast into the slabs. If you wanted to add more copper you would be looking at surface mount conduit. That was never planned for so the odds of a straight shot will be minimal, lighting and sprinklers will quite likely need to be moved & reengineered at the same time adding greatly to the cost.
 
I think you’d be surprised at how much excess capacity runs to many commercial buildings. Even old ones.

High voltage with step down transformers is the key. A condo or large apartment building would have its own substation based on tens of thousands of Volts coming in from the main feeds, and then stepped down through the building via secondary transformers.

Large power hungry structures are not built like a home with a simple 240v feed.
 
PrivatePilot said:
I think you’d be surprised at how much excess capacity runs to many commercial buildings. Even old ones.

High voltage with step down transformers is the key. A condo or large apartment building would have its own substation based on tens of thousands of Volts coming in from the main feeds, and then stepped down through the building via secondary transformers.

Large power hungry structures are not built like a home with a simple 240v feed.
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I know. I can't speak to commercial or industrial construction, but in residential (eg. condos), they install the minimum legally required capacity with the smallest copper possible that they can get someone to sign off on in the smallest conduit possible. In every building I have worked on, based on what I have been told/heard in meetings, they are bumping max capacity without these chargers.

One multi-building condo (~25 floors) had the main substation as 2500kVA at 28kV. Now obviously adding 10 chargers shouldn't be a problem, but if you start talking 100+ you are looking at another drop from the street (I don't know where the actual line is, it is likely building dependent). With the sample development above (with more than 300 parking spaces), 300 30A EVSE chargers would be 2160 kVA or more than 80% of the capacity of the substation. No smart charger/load shifting can make that work. Obviously Tesla's 100A chargers or DCFC exasperate the situation (but I don't see them being required in code so I doubt they will get picked up).

Actually, I could see a developer investigating using a DCFC station to replace a large percentage of the required EVSE drops. I don't know which way ends up cheaper or if they could get it approved as an alternate solution.
 
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MacDoc said:
You really should pay more attention :rolleyes:

First a garage fire full of vehicles with 20 gallons of highly flammable gasoline ...makes for exciting photos

Second ....solid state hydrogen storage does not require pressure or free hydrogen. When it gets to garage full stage...that's how it will be stored.
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I didn't know they did solid state storage in cars. I thought it was all pressure tanks.

Upon further searching, I can't find a single vehicle (even in research) using solid storage. Commercial viability of solid storage vehicles is in the very distant future.
 
The research is not done in vehicles...it's done in labs. DOE has a specific program looking for weight/density

Green Car Congress: Hydrogen Storage
www.greencarcongress.com/hydrogen_storage/
Nov 14, 2017 - DOE team elucidates key hydrogenation mechanism of magnesium diboride; promising solid state H2 storage material. September 28, 2017. An inexpensive and useful layered superconductor compound also may be an efficient solid-state material for storing hydrogen. Through theory and experimentation, Lawrence ...
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This is a commercial product.

Hydrexia's Patented Hydrogen Storage Technology
hydrexia.com/hydrexia-hydrogen-storage-technology/
Hydrexia's hydrogen storage technology is based on cast magnesium alloys with novel microstructure to store hydrogen as a solid metal hydride. ... Hydrexia's solid-state ground storage product is a GroundStorageProducts ... Hydrexia's ground storage products will be available for commercial deliveries starting Q1 2017.
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and this is right on the track for vehicle use.

Lawrence Livermore scientists have collaborated with an interdisciplinary team of researchers including colleagues from Sandia National Laboratories to develop an efficient hydrogen storage system that could be a boon for hydrogen powered vehicles.

Hydrogen is an excellent energy carrier, but the development of lightweight solid-state materials for compact, low-pressure storage is a huge challenge.

Complex metal hydrides are a promising class of hydrogen storage materials, but their viability is usually limited by slow hydrogen uptake and release. Nanoconfinement -- infiltrating the metal hydride within a matrix of another material such as carbon -- can, in certain instances, help make this process faster by shortening diffusion pathways for hydrogen or by changing the thermodynamic stability of the material.
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your googlefu sucks. :D
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