ABS promotion or ABS deception? | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

ABS promotion or ABS deception?

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Baggsy said:
First of all let me say that I'm skeptical of claims against technology from someone whose toy doesn't need a seat. Other bikes are meant for going great distances from point A to point B, in a much faster way than a human alone could.

Secondly, that's a scooter in the video.

Thirdly, is the gist of your claim is that the rider is deliberately twisting the bars when they lock up the front tire? If he only let them twist part way when the front slid out, would that make a difference to you? To someone locking up the front in a panic situation?
Click to expand...

I do have a go fast and a go far motorcycle also ;) and those do have saddles.

I should think that if you are demonstrating the difference between an ABS brake system and the same bike with the ABS turned off, they should make a reasonable effort to stop as short as physically possible in both tests! That means using both the front and rear brake and steering the bike as it should be steered which does not include cranking the steering full lock or throwing it into a side slide. :/ "someone locking up the front in a panic situation" you are suppose to learn not to do that, that's never been the correct way to ride a non-ABS motorcycle, so why did they do that when the ABS was turned off. These guys are going for drama and shifting weight onto the outrigger caster which has no brake doesn't help the results either. Note that he seem's to remember how to ride properly just a couple of feet before he exits the skid pad!

1986_K100_RS.jpg

venus_F3.jpg

... do you like those ones better :D
 
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With regards to the ABS versus non ABS ...

Something tells me that the people who don't want to have it, have never had a car turn left across their path with no warning and so close that you knew you were going to hit it.

I have.

When that happens, your programmed instincts take over. You want to stop. You end up applying the brakes that you are in the habit of applying, as hard as you possibly can. (I shudder at the thought of the habitual rear-brakers out there.) I hit the car with the front wheel locked up (no ABS on the bike in question), the rear wheel in the air, and in the process of low-siding. ABS wouldn't have prevented me from hitting the car but it would have meant staying upright. In my case the speed involved was about 60 km/h and I managed to scrub it off to probably 20-ish before impact. At a higher speed, the results would have been worse. You can stop harder with the bike upright and tires on the ground, than sliding after falling off.

The "experienced rider" argument? At the time this happened, I had almost 20 years of riding experience and about 15 years of roadracing experience. My name is not Valentino Rossi, but I think I qualified as an experienced rider.

My newest bike has ABS. YES there are some circumstances that can trip it up ... choppy washboard pavement, for example. But in the situations that cover 99.9% of the time, you don't have to worry about modulating the brakes - just hit them as hard as you can. Doesn't matter if it's damp or if there's a patch of sand. It will sort itself out. And it is absolutely not intrusive during normal riding.
 
This belongs here too:
Trials said:
You know what works a heck of a lot better then ABS,
not hesitating, covering your brake control and leaving enough room to slow down or stop!
Click to expand...
 
Brian P said:
With regards to the ABS versus non ABS ...

Something tells me that the people who don't want to have it, have never had a car turn left across their path with no warning and so close that you knew you were going to hit it.

I have.

When that happens, your programmed instincts take over. You want to stop. You end up applying the brakes that you are in the habit of applying, as hard as you possibly can. (I shudder at the thought of the habitual rear-brakers out there.) I hit the car with the front wheel locked up (no ABS on the bike in question), the rear wheel in the air, and in the process of low-siding. ABS wouldn't have prevented me from hitting the car but it would have meant staying upright. In my case the speed involved was about 60 km/h and I managed to scrub it off to probably 20-ish before impact. At a higher speed, the results would have been worse. You can stop harder with the bike upright and tires on the ground, than sliding after falling off.

The "experienced rider" argument? At the time this happened, I had almost 20 years of riding experience and about 15 years of roadracing experience. My name is not Valentino Rossi, but I think I qualified as an experienced rider.

My newest bike has ABS. YES there are some circumstances that can trip it up ... choppy washboard pavement, for example. But in the situations that cover 99.9% of the time, you don't have to worry about modulating the brakes - just hit them as hard as you can. Doesn't matter if it's damp or if there's a patch of sand. It will sort itself out. And it is absolutely not intrusive during normal riding.
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Agreed Brian.
In that emergency, ABS would save your bacon.

I think it comes down to riders skill level.
If you are caught off guard by a car turning left in front of you, perhaps a bit more scanning ahead and anticipating what is about to happen would serve you better than depending on ABS to save you.


I agree, there are a few situations where ABS is a great thing.

Every time I ride in the rain. I always think ABS would be a good idea.

I have been in a few situations where ABS would have been a bad thing.

I also think that the new riders on today's streets are coddled into buying a bike with ABS and never learn to actually brake effectively.

It's like the guy who buys the BMW 1000RR and goes racing and thinks he can ride.

Set him out on an RZ350 or a old GSXR and see what happens to him.
Becoming too reliant on technology, can lead to bad habits.


If you keep scanning for dangers ahead, and make an exit plan even before something happens to you, being caught off guard is a lower risk.

I always say........Plan on the worst thing happening and make a plan in case it actually does happen.

If you think every car driver is out to get you, you should be fine.


I have ridden with you Brian, and I know your abilities.

I think you ride just as well as you do without ABS.
Your skill level is high enough to threshold brake. I know the instinct to clamp on as much brake as possible is not easy to counter act.
Fight or flight.
Instincts sometimes take over, and you have little or no ability to control it.
It's a reflex action.

If I pour boiling water on my hand, it's out of the way before I even know it was hot water.

I hit the brakes in a panic as well.

I prefer to be able to lock up the back wheel any time I wish. It makes me feel safer..
 
Trials said:
This belongs here too:
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

When a white Ford Taurus approaches in the oncoming direction and I'm already slowed down to 60 km/h (speed limit) and that car abruptly turns left without signalling and without warning maybe 20 or 25 metres ahead ... Veering right was not an option (parked cars, and that's the direction the Taurus was going - hitting the right rear door doesn't do any more good than hitting the right rear fender), veering left was not an option (there was a car following the Taurus going straight - that would have been a head-on crash). Emergency-stop was the best choice, even with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I think I did all that could be done.

You haven't been there. I can tell.
 
Low rider said:
If you are caught off guard by a car turning left in front of you, perhaps a bit more scanning ahead and anticipating what is about to happen would serve you better than depending on ABS to save you.
Click to expand...

For sure this is true MOST of the time. A lot of people don't make any consideration for the mistakes that other drivers can make ... or that they make themselves. Looking further ahead, understanding what other drivers are preparing to do, and taking some sort of action to at least make sure it is possible for the other driver to see them (don't hide behind obstructions), and slowing down approaching intersections are more effective things to do than purely relying on ABS to save your bacon.

In my situation, the reason that I was doing 60 km/h (speed limit) and not more, was that I saw that there was traffic, and pedestrians, and parked cars, and all manner of things that might come at me from any direction.

But there was no predicting that the oncoming car was going to turn. No stop before turning, no signal before turning, the car just turned. The driver had unobstructed line of sight to two oncoming bikes (mine, and a rider behind me - who managed to stop - although that explained why there were two skid marks, not just the one from my locked front wheel). The driver was too busy chatting with passengers to bother paying attention to what was around.
 
I also think that the new riders on today's streets are coddled into buying a bike with ABS and never learn to actually brake effectively.
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What is "properly"?? What possible use? ...it can't even be done.
It requires constant practice so it's ingrained ....there is no opportunity for that.

By all means training for other aspects of riding is useful but if you have ABS that's what you ingrain.
Lane positioning, defensive riding all useful skills to be conscious of....threshold braking when you can't .....what possible use is that.

I also agree that there are unpredictable circumstances .....maybe I could have anticipated a particularly small car turning left, invisible in the dip ahead.
But without ABS I would have very likely ended in the grass or ditch or even lost the backend.

The ABS allowed maximum braking while tiptoeing around him on the right staying on pavement.
I did get caught out when a woman actually panic stopped for a squirrel....as we were both accelerating away from a light on a clear road it was rather unexpected behaviour - I grabbed the binders, heard the ABS kick in and did get stopped safely ....she gave me a very sheepish shrug and wave.

The one thing I don't think ABS gives you one iota of help is painted lines in the rain on turns.....i'm not even sure traction control can help with that :(
 
Since ABS braking systems are now nearly universal due to government mandate, is any promoting or deceiving really going on? Don't we all want to feel good for paying extra for extra gizmos? I do. The average motorist just mashes pedals or levers and then logs in to argue about buzzwords. That's the real deception. Double-doubles sloshing and walnut crullers crumbling over greasy keyboards don't cut it for me anymore. The only people I trust now are Ari Henning, Ryan Kluftinger and peer-reviewed statistical studies.
 
I've had both. I'm neither for nor against. It isn't a deciding factor for me buying a bike.
 
Thankfully, the government and insurance companies are there to save me from myself.
ABS should have an OFF switch. I have the most technologically advanced motorcycle on the planet and the ABS has almost killed me twice. Braking at a low speed approaching the sidewalk in s gas station parking lot the front wheel hits a few small bumps and my brakes go away and I shoot out onto the road. Thankfully there was no traffic. I'd never have given this maneuver a second thought on my GSXR that doesn't have ABS. I can turn off my traction control at will but I don't have that choice for my ABS.
I can out brake ABS systems that have been produced for street bikes over the last 10 years. Myself and a couple other advanced riders are in agreement that ABS full time is a menace. It's not just the stopping distance that I'm talking about but also the initial application of the brakes that ABS will interrupt if you're too quick on the lever - like when I need my brakes the most.
Don't just assume that certain things are a certain way just because you're told or you think it makes sense. I've seen engineers be wrong in a number of industries - how many recalls are there in this industry lately? How many modifications do manufacturers perform before models with problems get into the market?
 
theassassin said:
thankfully, the government and insurance companies are there to save me from myself.
Abs should have an off switch. I have the most technologically advanced motorcycle on the planet and the abs has almost killed me twice. Braking at a low speed approaching the sidewalk in s gas station parking lot the front wheel hits a few small bumps and my brakes go away and i shoot out onto the road. Thankfully there was no traffic. I'd never have given this maneuver a second thought on my gsxr that doesn't have abs. I can turn off my traction control at will but i don't have that choice for my abs.
I can out brake abs systems that have been produced for street bikes over the last 10 years. Myself and a couple other advanced riders are in agreement that abs full time is a menace. It's not just the stopping distance that i'm talking about but also the initial application of the brakes that abs will interrupt if you're too quick on the lever - like when i need my brakes the most.
Don't just assume that certain things are a certain way just because you're told or you think it makes sense. I've seen engineers be wrong in a number of industries - how many recalls are there in this industry lately? How many modifications do manufacturers perform before models with problems get into the market?
Click to expand...

omg. Somebody agrees with me.

There is a god.
 
theassassin said:
Thankfully, the government and insurance companies are there to save me from myself.
ABS should have an OFF switch. I have the most technologically advanced motorcycle on the planet and the ABS has almost killed me twice. Braking at a low speed approaching the sidewalk in s gas station parking lot the front wheel hits a few small bumps and my brakes go away and I shoot out onto the road. Thankfully there was no traffic. I'd never have given this maneuver a second thought on my GSXR that doesn't have ABS. I can turn off my traction control at will but I don't have that choice for my ABS.
I can out brake ABS systems that have been produced for street bikes over the last 10 years. Myself and a couple other advanced riders are in agreement that ABS full time is a menace. It's not just the stopping distance that I'm talking about but also the initial application of the brakes that ABS will interrupt if you're too quick on the lever - like when I need my brakes the most.
Don't just assume that certain things are a certain way just because you're told or you think it makes sense. I've seen engineers be wrong in a number of industries - how many recalls are there in this industry lately? How many modifications do manufacturers perform before models with problems get into the market?
Click to expand...

'The most advanced bike on the planet' can't turn off ABS? Whats wrong with this picture (i'm talking to the manufacturers)? I know some bikes do give you this option, i think all of them that come equipped past the entry level market should..

But how do you shoot out into a road at low speed? I'm guessing our mutual ideas of 'low' differs greatly.
 
I know the circumstance being described here.

The Euroweenie regulators don't want (perceived) safety devices to be able to be turned off. Neither do American lawyers itching for business. You can't turn off ABS in any car, you can't turn off ABS on any (pavement-oriented street legal European-registered) motorcycle. I understand that some dual-purpose/dirt-oriented ADV style bikes have ABS systems in which the rear ABS can be turned off ... this was probably allowed by the European regulators after considerable protestation from users.

The ABS system under discussion here (and presumably many others) can be tripped up by chatter-bumps or washboard-bumps. The tire loses contact with the ground as it enters a dip, ABS turns off the front brake in an attempt to get the wheel to recover its rotation, the tire comes in contact with the other side of the dip and thus has plenty of grip but it takes a moment for the ABS to realize that wheel speed has recovered and to re-apply the brake. If this happens just as you are coming to a stop, it can feel like you have lost your brakes. (It is actually still doing some braking, but less than you are "asking" for.)

With a non-ABS in the same situation, the wheel actually tries to lock going into that dip (and may actually stop), then the tire is basically stopped as the tire gets to the other side of the dip and the extra grip gets it turning again.

I know of one specific intersection in which I could trip it up in this manner on one specific approach direction ... and that spot has just been repaved!
 
Take away is you don't remove the obvious large scale benefit of ABS to accommodate a narrow set of circumstances.

That's parallel to the same nonsense about seat belts ...ie in rare circumstances being thrown from the car has a better outcome.

In addition, knowing as Brian does, under what circumstances that ABS hiccup might occur....you reduce your speed accordingly when you see/feel those conditions.
Riders adapt quickly to their bike's idiosyncracies.
CVTs have a similiar "sudden loss of engine braking" at low speeds that can catch you out.
 
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Brian P said:
I know the circumstance being described here.

The Euroweenie regulators don't want (perceived) safety devices to be able to be turned off. Neither do American lawyers itching for business. You can't turn off ABS in any car, you can't turn off ABS on any (pavement-oriented street legal European-registered) motorcycle. I understand that some dual-purpose/dirt-oriented ADV style bikes have ABS systems in which the rear ABS can be turned off ... this was probably allowed by the European regulators after considerable protestation from users.

The ABS system under discussion here (and presumably many others) can be tripped up by chatter-bumps or washboard-bumps. The tire loses contact with the ground as it enters a dip, ABS turns off the front brake in an attempt to get the wheel to recover its rotation, the tire comes in contact with the other side of the dip and thus has plenty of grip but it takes a moment for the ABS to realize that wheel speed has recovered and to re-apply the brake. If this happens just as you are coming to a stop, it can feel like you have lost your brakes. (It is actually still doing some braking, but less than you are "asking" for.)

With a non-ABS in the same situation, the wheel actually tries to lock going into that dip (and may actually stop), then the tire is basically stopped as the tire gets to the other side of the dip and the extra grip gets it turning again.

I know of one specific intersection in which I could trip it up in this manner on one specific approach direction ... and that spot has just been repaved!
Click to expand...

So, Brian.

Is that you agreeing that ABS isn't always a good idea on a motorcycle?
 
Brian P said:
I know the circumstance being described here.

The Euroweenie regulators don't want (perceived) safety devices to be able to be turned off. Neither do American lawyers itching for business. You can't turn off ABS in any car, you can't turn off ABS on any (pavement-oriented street legal European-registered) motorcycle. I understand that some dual-purpose/dirt-oriented ADV style bikes have ABS systems in which the rear ABS can be turned off ... this was probably allowed by the European regulators after considerable protestation from users.

The ABS system under discussion here (and presumably many others) can be tripped up by chatter-bumps or washboard-bumps. The tire loses contact with the ground as it enters a dip, ABS turns off the front brake in an attempt to get the wheel to recover its rotation, the tire comes in contact with the other side of the dip and thus has plenty of grip but it takes a moment for the ABS to realize that wheel speed has recovered and to re-apply the brake. If this happens just as you are coming to a stop, it can feel like you have lost your brakes. (It is actually still doing some braking, but less than you are "asking" for.)

With a non-ABS in the same situation, the wheel actually tries to lock going into that dip (and may actually stop), then the tire is basically stopped as the tire gets to the other side of the dip and the extra grip gets it turning again.

I know of one specific intersection in which I could trip it up in this manner on one specific approach direction ... and that spot has just been repaved!
Click to expand...

Pretty sure i watched a video last night of a Super Duke R where the guy turned off rear ABS!
 
Low rider said:
So, Brian.

Is that you agreeing that ABS isn't always a good idea on a motorcycle?
Click to expand...

No. 99% of riders will be better off with it 99% of the time. It's not worth sacrificing that for the exceptional cases.

I still want an off button.
 
Brian P said:
No. 99% of riders will be better off with it 99% of the time. It's not worth sacrificing that for the exceptional cases.

I still want an off button.
Click to expand...

I don't agree that 99% of us need ABS.
 
Brian P said:
No. 99% of riders will be better off with it 99% of the time. It's not worth sacrificing that for the exceptional cases.

I still want an off button.
Click to expand...

It has to work properly 100 percent of the time PERIOD! My braking isn't good just 99 percent of the time or at every 100th stop light that I come to I would likely be killed. This is how I feel about ABS. It is not a fool proof system which it should be if it is regulating my brakes. I almost flee off a mountain on an SV650 from the office when I lived in vancouver. During an extremely aggressive corner entry I yanked the brakes and they completely went away! There was a 1000 ft drop on my right if I didn't make the corner. I hung it in way hotter than I ever would.
ABS can be useful to many riders but the rest of us should have the option to shut it off so we can eliminate that 1 percent chance of dying when we're not even out to push our luck.
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