ABS promotion or ABS deception? | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

ABS promotion or ABS deception?

I would like to have better feedback to the rider to keep people from relying on ABS (similar to a stick shaker in a plane). Something that makes it very clear what is happening and letting you know that you are riding beyond traction limits. I don't know what the right mechanism is for this feature (probably not light, either noise or vibration would work).

Although not very clear, there is some feedback when ABS is activated (whether intended or not), you would feel your brakes vibrating and could hear it if you were paying attention.
It's an awkward enough feel that you would think to yourself "Something is different".

I for one don't like it very much when commercials fake stuff to promote a product.
Again, the intention of the thread was not to solicit opinions or experiences on the merits or demerits of ABS, the point is the lack of scientific procedure in the way the product is being commercially promoted to people who in a vast number of cases have no idea how to ride a motorcycle and this stuff is contrived to suggest it is a life saver, people who frequently don't know otherwise also include insurance underwriters and the authors of government legislature.

In the big picture one concern is that riders will rely on nanny features instead of learning how to properly operate a motorcycle! What is that rider going to do when the ABS stops working as intended, would they even know? Let's say ANY form of ABS does become mandatory on every new motorcycle, should we forget about training new riders how to correctly use motorcycle brakes and just train them to slam on both binders and let the ABS do it's magic?

On the note of people relying on ABS.
Yes, we would see people relying on the ABS as a safety net in hard braking situations the same as we saw for ABS systems in cars. HOWEVER, if the same rider wasn't intending to practice hard braking on their own time anyways (which I know most don't), they would be worse off without ABS.

That being said, if someone rode to the point where their ABS is activating regularly, they'd likely get rear ended pretty fast.

People that focus on improving their riding ability would look past the ABS feature and not rely on it.
People that just want to get on a bike and go cruising around, typically won't take the time to train themselves anyway.

Chances of ABS systems to stop working as intended is much less likely to happen versus a rider that doesn't practice basic skills in the first place.



Over time, technology is going to improve, become more reliable and stable.

Looking at cars, you'll still see people here and there that insist on not having TCS, ABS, and Automatic Transmission cars.
Although these features did eventually enable many bad drivers to get behind the wheel, those drivers would have never practiced threshold braking, or had a clue what to do if their car went into a slide in the first place.
 
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Huh? Something to argue about?

Loud pipes piss off the majority of the population. ABS affects nobody other than the rider. I don't understand the correlation.

It's the new thread topic that folks like to ***** about on motorcycle forums.
 
This is the best one I know of...
Totally agree, seen that video some time ago and found it to be the most reasonable and honest. Riders were able to keep the bikes attitude and steering under reasonable control without the steering suddenly pitching into a full lock turn.
:thumbup: Kudos to MCN and their test riders.
 
This is the best one I know of. It's the same C-ABS I have and you have two bikes the same ..one with one without and all expert riders and at 80 mph.

The tech has only gotten better.


[video=youtube;X6kO6ltk3a0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0[/video]

So pretty much all riders will benefit from ABS indeed. The shortest difference they show for the ABS stopping distance was 5 metres! That's the difference between stopping with room to spare and going over the hood of a car.
 
Totally agree, seen that video some time ago and found it to be the most reasonable and honest. Expert/professional riders were able to keep the bikes attitude and steering under reasonable control without the steering suddenly pitching into a full lock turn.
:thumbup: Kudos to MCN and their test riders.

FTFY. At 5:56 the professional guy that gets paid to do this sort of testing says "For me it's the initial application of the non-ABS that you certainly have to think about how hard you can initially brake ... with the ABS bike you just crack the brakes."

I think many novice and causal riders wouldn't have their wits about them to "think about how hard" they're going to brake in a panic situation and many end up going down because of that.
 
How about this one, fair test of non-ABS? Or is the rider consistency and unavoidably turning the steering (full lock to the same side on every run) the moment he ham fists the brakes and completely locks up the brakes ? ... this is not an amateur, this is another professional hired rider.
[video=youtube_share;dJ_UkAFW6cA]https://youtu.be/dJ_UkAFW6cA[/video]
 
I for one don't like it very much when commercials fake stuff to promote a product.
Again, the intention of the thread was not to solicit opinions or experiences on the merits or demerits of ABS, the point is the lack of scientific procedure in the way the product is being commercially promoted to people who in a vast number of cases have no idea how to ride a motorcycle and this stuff is contrived to suggest it is a life saver, people who frequently don't know otherwise also include insurance underwriters and the authors of government legislature.

In the big picture one concern is that riders will rely on nanny features instead of learning how to properly operate a motorcycle! What is that rider going to do when the ABS stops working as intended, would they even know? Let's say ANY form of ABS does become mandatory on every new motorcycle, should we forget about training new riders how to correctly use motorcycle brakes and just train them to slam on both binders and let the ABS do it's magic?

the video that you posted has 346 views, the channel has 66 subscribers, I wouldn't worry too much about them misinforming a lot of people
 
the video that you posted has 346 views, the channel has 66 subscribers, I wouldn't worry too much about them misinforming a lot of people
Good point :| and I watched it 3 times, plus it was produced in Malaysia and is demonstrated before a live audience on a regular basis so maybe it's a non-issue.

The other one has been viewed 1319500 times, does that qualify as viral yet?
 
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Let's say ANY form of ABS does become mandatory on every new motorcycle, should we forget about training new riders how to correctly use motorcycle brakes and just train them to slam on both binders and let the ABS do it's magic?

Just like we don't teach the correct oil /gas mixture.

You can't "teach" non-ABS technique on an ABS bike.

Long term riders rarely experience ABS coming on as it's ingrained from riding older bikes with no ABS.
So we automatically brake differently and approach certain situations with more caution or even with expectation of some slide.

But an ABS rider is not going to have his tail end swing around to teach him so he ceases to worry about it. It's not in his frame of reference at all for expected behavior.

It is one reason I advocate off pavement for everyone but even there ...bloody IBM instructor telling me just point the GS straight down the hill and grab the front brake full on......instinct dead set against that but damn didn't the bike just nicely walk down that sand/grass hill pretty as you please.:rolleyes:

That said ...a rider brought up on ABS could quickly and understandably get into trouble on a rental or a borrowed bike.
 
there wont be any more non abs bikes(for long)

Thanks Euro4 (for also killing the motorcycle industry, and causing manufacturers to have bikes with snatchy throttles)
 
Just like we don't teach the correct oil /gas mixture.

You can't "teach" non-ABS technique on an ABS bike.

Long term riders rarely experience ABS coming on as it's ingrained from riding older bikes with no ABS.

I sometimes wonder about drivers becoming more and more dependent on safety gizmos like lane-keeping assist, automated parallel-parking, blind-spot sensing and the like so that heaven forbid they ever have to drive a car that lacks these aids. How much more dangerous will they be compared to someone that learned and grew up driving cars that had no such automation and perhaps even three pedals...

For me the thing(s) that differentiates driver or rider "assist" systems from a system like ABS is summed up as:

(a) a motorcycle is an inherently unstable vehicle, and
(b) a single-fault condition can cause a hazardous situation to arise (e.g. locking either wheel under braking), and
(c) the consequences of an incident arising from (b) can be catastrophic

An IIHS study from 2013 ("Effects of Antilock Braking Systems onMotorcycle Fatal Crash Rates: An Update") (link) found that:

"ABS was associated with a 31 percent reduction in the rate of fatal motorcycle crashesper 10,000 registered vehicle years."

Another study from 2015 ("Effectiveness of motorcycle antilock braking systems (ABS) in reducing crashes, the first cross-national study") (link) found:

"The effectiveness of motorcycle ABS in reducing injury crashes ranged from 24% (95% confidence interval [CI], 12-36) in Italy to 29% (95% CI, 20-38) in Spain, and 34% (95% CI, 16-52) in Sweden. The reductions in severe and fatal crashes were even greater, at 34% (95% CI, 24-44) in Spain and 42% (95% CI, 23-61) in Sweden. The overall reductions of crashes involving ABS-equipped scooters (at least 250 cc) were 27% (95% CI, 12-42) in Italy and 22% (95% CI, 2-42) in Spain. ABS on scooters with at least a 250 cc engine reduced severe and fatal crashes by 31% (95% CI, 12-50), based on Spanish data alone."

Those figures are pretty compelling, even if you personally find certain videos to be "promotion" of the technology or snidely adopt a "back in my day..." position.

It is one reason I advocate off pavement for everyone ... a rider brought up on ABS could quickly and understandably get into trouble on a rental or a borrowed bike.

Well, technology marches forward. Someone buying an older bike lacking, say, ABS, just has to know the added risk and ride appropriately. If they **** up, they get hurt. That march of tech and law means it will be difficult to find a new bike lacking ABS soon so this dilemma fades as time moves on.

It would be interesting if people were forced to take driving lessons & exams in old beaters (like a 1976 Nova or Caprice or something) but it'll never happen. I took the MSC course a number of years ago on beater Yamaha XT250s that lacked lights and signals (let alone ABS...) Part of the course included panic braking, locking the rear, threshold braking etc. I wonder if that will ever change as the course bike inventory advances to machines with ABS etc...
 
Funny we were just discussing flying over at Stromtroopers and every sailplane pilot had to take a spin check every year and the machine of choice was a Lark.

1458561.jpg


Lovely plane, negative flaps, 17 m and the sucker would kill you in a heartbeat if you stalled a wing on final.

NOW....they don't spin check anymore afaik as you can't stall or spin modern designs - the wing design self corrects.
Why train for something that can't happen. ( unless you get your CofG all wrong. )

Now you can still get in trouble if you don't watch your airpspeed but you won't auger in.

There is enough for a motorcyclist to deal without ...thresh hold braking skill is not needed at this point.

What amazes me is traction control, wheelie control and even active in turns ....as a luddite in that regard....does it encourage pushing the envelope? :rolleyes:
 
I'm still solidly in the ABS is best group. If a person is motivated to learn threshold braking then they might come close to matching ABS stopping distances in dry conditions. If they are not motivated to learn this braking technique or are just plain ignorant of the need to practice threshold braking then ABS is made for them and they can still stop safely.
 
i think all the "Abs is witchcraft" crowd should remove their seatbelts and airbags and come drive in my hood for an afternoon(Brampton)
 
I'm taking this to a new thread rather then pollute somebody else's thread, let me just say first off I am not for or against motorcycle ABS provided it works, but so far everything I see being demonstrated as ABS at work is a complete lie. This one for example is an absurdly contrived example, instead of erroneously being called: "See the difference! Without ABS this motorcycle would crash" it should be called; 'See the difference between locking up only a front wheel and cranking the steering full lock turn vs jerky on and off braking' or 'See the difference! Without training wheels this scooter could be made to fall down and go boom' [video=youtube_share;zWFmiSYWfAk]https://youtu.be/zWFmiSYWfAk[/video] Completely new riders might see this crap and buy into it hook line and sinker, but it is a complete Scam to promote a product in this manor! The promoters of this garbage need a good spanking for being so deceitful and making motorcycle riders out to be complete idiots. That's my humble opinion, feel free to post your own.

First of all let me say that I'm skeptical of claims against technology from someone whose toy doesn't need a seat. Other bikes are meant for going great distances from point A to point B, in a much faster way than a human alone could.

Secondly, that's a scooter in the video.

Thirdly, is the gist of your claim is that the rider is deliberately twisting the bars when they lock up the front tire? If he only let them twist part way when the front slid out, would that make a difference to you? To someone locking up the front in a panic situation?
 

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