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Ducati engines

bigpoppa

bigpoppa

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This will show my ducati ignorance, but do all their (current and modern)bikes come with the V twin?

I get lost between the italian jargon "Testastretta" "Desmodromic" "Desmosedici"


Do they have any that aren't V twins at the moment? Or do they share their love for V twins with harley?
 
Modern ducs are all "L" twins.2018 brings in the "L" fours.
 
Aside from some single cylinder engines in the early days of the company, for the most part, Ducati has been known for it's L-twins - 90 degree V-twins which are mounted one vertically and the other horizontally, forming an L.

Until now, the only 4 cylinder production engine was the Desmosedici RR, which was the street-version of the MotoGP V4 prototype race bike.

But 2017 saw the unveiling of the V4 Superbike Panigale, which is the only 4-cylinder bike in it's current line-up. The rest are still L-twins.
 
"L" is a "V" tipped forward at an angle. Historically that is Ducati's most common engine architecture, but they have built singles in the past, and their recent MotoGP engine is a V4 and their upcoming replacement for the premium sport bike models is a V4. Yes, it is tipped forward at a slight angle, but not so far as their traditional two-cylinder engines have been.

"Desmodromic" is a whole separate matter, it refers to the valvetrain which both mechanically opens and closes each valve, contrasted to a conventional arrangement which mechanically opens it against spring pressure which closes it. There is nothing tying desmodromic valve actuation to any particular engine architecture (aside from requiring overhead camshafts!) but Ducati has been the only manufacturer to use it.
 
Desmodromic valve train has been around since 1912-14 ish, has been used by Mercedes-Benz, Austin (in marine) and a bunch of '50's GP cars. Taglioni was the first to put in a production Ducati.

Ducati's idea with the 'L' twin was to cant the engine forward to allow cool air to hit the rear cylinder, it was pretty efficient when they were all air cooled. H-D rear cylinders can get really hot in slow traffic, sitting fairly straight up and down.
 
desmo is neat stuff

works towards solving a breathing problem with large cylinder volumes
ie: getting enough air in and out fast enough

higher the cylinder volume the larger the valves need to be
this is all fine at lower RPM's, like HD large twins

try to up the RPM's and springs don't close the large valves quick enough
so desmo does not rely on springs to close them
 
And setting the Desmo valves is really simple once you have done it a few times.
 
in theory
the 4 cyl Ducati engines should not require Desmo
anyone know if they are Desmo equipped?
 
Desomo is neat technology, and despite it being used still by Ducati, it's not for anything other than uniqueness.

Way back, valve spring technology limited engine RPM. Desmo valve trains used a rocker to push open and pull closed engine valves faster than a conventional rocker/spring valvetrain. Desmo had much higher RPM capability, making it a superior technology for high revving performance engines. The down side to Desmo is that it wears - you MUST remove the heads and service the valvetrain every 24000 Km. Desmo Service costs about $2000.

That was then (60's). In the 70's, valve spring technology advanced to the point where springs no longer became the limiting factor in engine RPM. No more Desmo advantage so everyone experimenting with the technology, except Ducati, abandoned it -- it became obsolete. Ducati stayed with Desmo because they were heavily invested in parts and too broke to invest in replacement options. After a while it became a nostalgic Ducati-exclusive feature.
 
Servicing the Desmo twin when I owned one was a few hr affair, I'm sure a real mechanic would be faster. That new V4 is going to take some time and cost serious money to maintain.
I was always very conscious of good oil (insert which oil should I use thread) and regular changes and never had a valve train issue. I was also very conscious of not putting a lot of miles on the older Duc's I had, bevel drive........
 
crankcall said:
Servicing the Desmo twin when I owned one was a few hr affair, I'm sure a real mechanic would be faster. That new V4 is going to take some time and cost serious money to maintain.
I was always very conscious of good oil (insert which oil should I use thread) and regular changes and never had a valve train issue. I was also very conscious of not putting a lot of miles on the older Duc's I had, bevel drive........
Click to expand...
You might check valve clearances in a couple of hours, that's not Desmo service.

DESMO service involves removing cylinder heads, which is usually easier if you remove the engine from the bike. DESMO rockers and valve shims/retainers wear, so every 25K KM the valvetrain has to be disassembled, inspected, worn parts replaced, and valves reshimmed. Then you reassemble the heads, put them back on the engine, put the engine back in the bike, setup carbs/fi.


If I could do this in 8 hours, I'd open my own shop -- at $1200/service, I'd be swamped!
 
Mad Mike said:
You might check valve clearances in a couple of hours, that's not Desmo service.

DESMO service involves removing cylinder heads, which is usually easier if you remove the engine from the bike. DESMO rockers and valve shims/retainers wear, so every 25K KM the valvetrain has to be disassembled, inspected, worn parts replaced, and valves reshimmed. Then you reassemble the heads, put them back on the engine, put the engine back in the bike, setup carbs/fi.


If I could do this in 8 hours, I'd open my own shop -- at $1200/service, I'd be swamped!
Click to expand...

Maybe on a 4 valver.But the beauty of the 2 valvers is the heads don't have to come off.A little awkward to change some of the shims,but with the right tools it's not that difficult imho.
 
Mad Mike said:
You might check valve clearances in a couple of hours, that's not Desmo service.

DESMO service involves removing cylinder heads, which is usually easier if you remove the engine from the bike. DESMO rockers and valve shims/retainers wear, so every 25K KM the valvetrain has to be disassembled, inspected, worn parts replaced, and valves reshimmed. Then you reassemble the heads, put them back on the engine, put the engine back in the bike, setup carbs/fi.


If I could do this in 8 hours, I'd open my own shop -- at $1200/service, I'd be swamped!
Click to expand...

wrong .... i used to own a desmoquattro (748s ) and i was able to change opener and closer shims, replace worn rockers etc without removing the heads or dropping the motor.
sounds like maybe youve been brainwashed by some ducati tech who makes the job sound alot more difficult than it is so you will give him your money...
 
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I used to get Ducati parts from the dealer downtown that had Ducati / Lamborgini . The parts guy showed me the Lambo disc brake rotors that came in individual hardwood boxes, with a small tube of special grease. Joke was that tube of grease wasn't for installing the rotors.
 
"sounds like maybe youve been brainwashed by some ducati tech who makes the job sound alot more difficult than it is so you will give him your money... "

Yeah there is a lot of that in the Ducati realm.
I think Ducatis are some of the easiest motors to work on.
I own bevel Ducatis. Takes me about 20 minutes, each head, to do valve lash on a springer, about twice as long with desmo. I usually remove the head... four bolts, just don't screw up the timing. If you DO screw up the timing it is a simple, but tedious, procedure to correct it.

Actually that is most of working on Ducatis: quite simple, VERY tedious.
I.E.: If you screw up the valve timing on a Honda motor, you turn the crankshaft two rotations to get to where you were. On a bevel you have to turn the crank 12 revolutions to get back to where you were (and line up all the dots on the gears).
Shimming the crank and transmission is the same... simple but tedious. Assemble the parts and measure, dis-assemble and add shims, re-assemble and measure, NOPE, dis-assemble again, add or remove shims, re-assemble and measure. Easy peasy. It is said that it took one guy eight hours to assemble a bevel motor at the factory when new. (The newer bikes have horizontal split case like everybody else so just buy new parts and install them, just like a Honda.

...but yeah. I'd say you're getting boned by the Ducati dealer on service. I wish I could get $1200 for an hour's work.
If anyone wants to learn more about assembling a Ducati motor, I have two on my bench at the moment. You can come up here and put them together if you want.

Another rip off is old British bikes. A Norton motor was designed in 1947, in a pub, on a napkin. A modern Honda lawn mower engine is more complicated. MUCH more complicated.

...if you own a desmo Ducati , I suggest you look at the valve train more often than every 25,000km
 
Wife and I were at the vintage/classic auctions in Vegas last January. Think Barret-Jackson for motorcycles, bevel anything for Ducs and the love/hate for round case vs sq case is pushing values to the moon.
 
Dr. Luxurious said:
wrong .... i used to own a desmoquattro (748s ) and i was able to change opener and closer shims, replace worn rockers etc without removing the heads or dropping the motor.
sounds like maybe youve been brainwashed by some ducati tech who makes the job sound alot more difficult than it is so you will give him your money...
Click to expand...
Perhaps I drank the Ducati issued Kool Aid. I did this service once, about 10 years back with a manual and no You-Tube videos. I did all the steps, mostly to say I'd done one and partly because my broke friend picked up a project Duc with tons of miles & zero service.

I'm sure after doing a few it gets easier - learn a few tricks, spend less time on research, leave out some unimportant steps. Perhaps I didn't need to do everything on the service checklist, and maybe Ducati mechanics don't.

Ducati's are cool in the same way Harleys are cool, I don't think I'll ever own either. Both have a crazy addiction to signature features that are obsolete -- perhaps that's what endears their riders to the brands.
 
I just don't get paying more for vintage. It's old, outdated and in some cases doesn't function anywhere as well as something newer. I also don't get the latest and greatest either. No, I'm not nostalgic for my childhood.
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