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  1. #21
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Any chance he was simply practicing for an amphib landing?

  2. #22

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo View Post
    Any chance he was simply practicing for an amphib landing?
    If he was practising, it was practice for an on-water crash landing. I have never seen a pilot intentionally descend that fast while landing. The first Icon crash was a hard water landing where the both sunk so they don't appreciate hitting the water hard.

  3. #23

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by PrivatePilot View Post
    This, basically. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    As for the law, you are allowed to perform aerobatic maneuvers (which, dumb or not, this would be classified as) so long as you are not "over a populated area".

    The lake seemed to have quite a few boats on it, but there could be an argument that it wasn't a "populated area", especially considering the plane in question is an amphib.

    I don't think anyone got the exact crash on video so it's hard to say if this was pilot error or mechanical failure, but whatever it was, the way he was flying could have led to both. I've heard of this plane being referred to as the "Jetski of the skies", and yes, it seems it was marketed towards this sort of flying.

    If the company doesn't yank the model as a result of this, well, I doubt they'll market it that way anymore, let's just put it that way.
    I think he was flying over the gulf when he crashed... not a lake.

  4. #24

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by hdsomeday View Post
    But again, someone famous has to die for any results to come of it (if there will be, other then everyone now knowing the aircraft type). If it was Joe Blow it wouldn't be a big deal.
    Those investigators do an amazing job.. They won't care who died, how famous they were... They just want to get to the bottom of why. A 'Joe Blow' crash would be investigated the same way, with the same interest, as anyone.

  5. #25
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyGhost View Post
    If he was practising, it was practice for an on-water crash landing. I have never seen a pilot intentionally descend that fast while landing
    I’ve done it, but it’s only during an obstacle clearance approach where one needs to clear an obstacle (ie treeline) on approach but still must plant it on the runway ASAP afterwards because of braking distance required, short runway, or a combination of both.

    But this would certainly not have been the case in this situation.
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  6. #26

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Altitude is your friend. Even if an airframe fails many light / ultralights have ballistic parachutes that might make a crash survivable. They need altitude to deploy and open.

  7. #27
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Here's an excellent example of an obstacle clearance approach in a Cessna. Notice the flat approach with the sudden drop once the obstacle is cleared, and then rapidly in to the flare. I remember these were fun to practice as it is a bit like a roller coaster ride, but you do have to pay attention as the ground comes up very fast and it's easy to misjudge your decent speed and then flare too late - the results are not pretty - a nasty bounce at best at which point you execute a go around vs trying to salvage it (the risk of aerodynamic stall is too great) and you try again.

    Anyhow, the second (albeit OT for this discussion) part of the video is also kinda interesting - he does a beautifully executed soft field landing afterward the obstacle avoidance maneuver - you'll notice that in the flare he actually ADDS a bit of power and keeps the nosewheel in the air for a good part of the roll out, and you'll also see the elevator at full up deflection as the wings loose lift - this is all designed to keep the nosewheel as light as possible as long as possible to avoid it digging in if the terrain ended up being very soft.

    Both skills definitely take some practice.

    Last edited by PrivatePilot; 11-10-2017 at 12:44 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfin View Post
    Fly one of those the same way Halliday appeared to be flying his Icon and you'll end up just as dead.
    True but most pilots trained to fly a Cessna would not fly like Halliday did in the A5.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Road King View Post
    True but most pilots trained to fly a Cessna would not fly like Halliday did in the A5.
    As the age old aviation saying goes, there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are not many old bold pilots.
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  10. #30

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by PrivatePilot View Post
    As the age old aviation saying goes, there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are not many old bold pilots.
    Also "The superior pilot uses his superior intelligence to avoid the use of his superior skills."

  11. #31
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    I find it interesting that these A5s have FDRs, so Icon is so far well equipped to defend the aircraft itself. They do seem to be setting up these owners for disaster though, maybe they actually deserve a lawsuit
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  12. #32
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedKestrel View Post
    I find it interesting that these A5s have FDRs, so Icon is so far well equipped to defend the aircraft itself. They do seem to be setting up these owners for disaster though, maybe they actually deserve a lawsuit
    Regardless of how it was marketed, Icon had a responsible flyer clause in the original purchase agreements for the A5. The updated (May) agreement states that the pilot waives his right to sue if the NTSB finds no fault of the plane in a crash. Halliday would have had to have signed the updated purchase agreement to buy the plane. I'd be shocked if the NTSB rules against Icon after examining the FDR and the footage of his antics prior to the crash. His estate is SOL as far as a lawsuit goes (but it is 'Murica. ya never know).

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  13. #33

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by FullMotoJacket View Post
    Regardless of how it was marketed, Icon had a responsible flyer clause in the original purchase agreements for the A5. The updated (May) agreement states that the pilot waives his right to sue if the NTSB finds no fault of the plane in a crash. Halliday would have had to have signed the updated purchase agreement to buy the plane. I'd be shocked if the NTSB rules against Icon after examining the FDR and the footage of his antics prior to the crash.
    There is always the chance that the plane actually had an issue (likely related to the way it was being flown eg. It came apart due to a high g manoeuvre).

    Obviously we would all be shocked if the primary cause wasn't attributed to the pilot but there is still a chance that the plane contributed.

  14. #34
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by FullMotoJacket View Post
    Regardless of how it was marketed, Icon had a responsible flyer clause in the original purchase agreements for the A5. The updated (May) agreement states that the pilot waives his right to sue if the NTSB finds no fault of the plane in a crash. Halliday would have had to have signed the updated purchase agreement to buy the plane. I'd be shocked if the NTSB rules against Icon after examining the FDR and the footage of his antics prior to the crash. His estate is SOL as far as a lawsuit goes (but it is 'Murica. ya never know).

    https://www.flyingmag.com/icon-throw...hase-agreement
    I dunno if that waiver would hold up, due to their active role in marketing it
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  15. #35

    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    If you read up on wiki about NTSB...it's very clear that their reports cannot be admitted for civil litigation.

    Waivers can be challenged. And the Halladay estate has means to mount a strong challenge should they choose to do so.

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  16. #36

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaFan View Post
    If you read up on wiki about NTSB...it's very clear that their reports cannot be admitted for civil litigation.

    Waivers can be challenged. And the Halladay estate has means to mount a strong challenge should they choose to do so.

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    The NTSB report would provide a good basis for independent reports

    Roy may have signed a waiver but did his wife and children? They have been deprived of income and companionship etc. Waivers only keep the dead from suing.

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