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  1. #21
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

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    Any chance he was simply practicing for an amphib landing?

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo View Post
    Any chance he was simply practicing for an amphib landing?
    If he was practising, it was practice for an on-water crash landing. I have never seen a pilot intentionally descend that fast while landing. The first Icon crash was a hard water landing where the both sunk so they don't appreciate hitting the water hard.

  3. #23

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by PrivatePilot View Post
    This, basically. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    As for the law, you are allowed to perform aerobatic maneuvers (which, dumb or not, this would be classified as) so long as you are not "over a populated area".

    The lake seemed to have quite a few boats on it, but there could be an argument that it wasn't a "populated area", especially considering the plane in question is an amphib.

    I don't think anyone got the exact crash on video so it's hard to say if this was pilot error or mechanical failure, but whatever it was, the way he was flying could have led to both. I've heard of this plane being referred to as the "Jetski of the skies", and yes, it seems it was marketed towards this sort of flying.

    If the company doesn't yank the model as a result of this, well, I doubt they'll market it that way anymore, let's just put it that way.
    I think he was flying over the gulf when he crashed... not a lake.

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by hdsomeday View Post
    But again, someone famous has to die for any results to come of it (if there will be, other then everyone now knowing the aircraft type). If it was Joe Blow it wouldn't be a big deal.
    Those investigators do an amazing job.. They won't care who died, how famous they were... They just want to get to the bottom of why. A 'Joe Blow' crash would be investigated the same way, with the same interest, as anyone.

  5. #25
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyGhost View Post
    If he was practising, it was practice for an on-water crash landing. I have never seen a pilot intentionally descend that fast while landing
    I’ve done it, but it’s only during an obstacle clearance approach where one needs to clear an obstacle (ie treeline) on approach but still must plant it on the runway ASAP afterwards because of braking distance required, short runway, or a combination of both.

    But this would certainly not have been the case in this situation.
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Altitude is your friend. Even if an airframe fails many light / ultralights have ballistic parachutes that might make a crash survivable. They need altitude to deploy and open.

  7. #27
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Here's an excellent example of an obstacle clearance approach in a Cessna. Notice the flat approach with the sudden drop once the obstacle is cleared, and then rapidly in to the flare. I remember these were fun to practice as it is a bit like a roller coaster ride, but you do have to pay attention as the ground comes up very fast and it's easy to misjudge your decent speed and then flare too late - the results are not pretty - a nasty bounce at best at which point you execute a go around vs trying to salvage it (the risk of aerodynamic stall is too great) and you try again.

    Anyhow, the second (albeit OT for this discussion) part of the video is also kinda interesting - he does a beautifully executed soft field landing afterward the obstacle avoidance maneuver - you'll notice that in the flare he actually ADDS a bit of power and keeps the nosewheel in the air for a good part of the roll out, and you'll also see the elevator at full up deflection as the wings loose lift - this is all designed to keep the nosewheel as light as possible as long as possible to avoid it digging in if the terrain ended up being very soft.

    Both skills definitely take some practice.

    Last edited by PrivatePilot; 11-10-2017 at 11:44 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfin View Post
    Fly one of those the same way Halliday appeared to be flying his Icon and you'll end up just as dead.
    True but most pilots trained to fly a Cessna would not fly like Halliday did in the A5.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Road King View Post
    True but most pilots trained to fly a Cessna would not fly like Halliday did in the A5.
    As the age old aviation saying goes, there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are not many old bold pilots.
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  10. #30

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by PrivatePilot View Post
    As the age old aviation saying goes, there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are not many old bold pilots.
    Also "The superior pilot uses his superior intelligence to avoid the use of his superior skills."

  11. #31
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    I find it interesting that these A5s have FDRs, so Icon is so far well equipped to defend the aircraft itself. They do seem to be setting up these owners for disaster though, maybe they actually deserve a lawsuit
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  12. #32
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedKestrel View Post
    I find it interesting that these A5s have FDRs, so Icon is so far well equipped to defend the aircraft itself. They do seem to be setting up these owners for disaster though, maybe they actually deserve a lawsuit
    Regardless of how it was marketed, Icon had a responsible flyer clause in the original purchase agreements for the A5. The updated (May) agreement states that the pilot waives his right to sue if the NTSB finds no fault of the plane in a crash. Halliday would have had to have signed the updated purchase agreement to buy the plane. I'd be shocked if the NTSB rules against Icon after examining the FDR and the footage of his antics prior to the crash. His estate is SOL as far as a lawsuit goes (but it is 'Murica. ya never know).

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by FullMotoJacket View Post
    Regardless of how it was marketed, Icon had a responsible flyer clause in the original purchase agreements for the A5. The updated (May) agreement states that the pilot waives his right to sue if the NTSB finds no fault of the plane in a crash. Halliday would have had to have signed the updated purchase agreement to buy the plane. I'd be shocked if the NTSB rules against Icon after examining the FDR and the footage of his antics prior to the crash.
    There is always the chance that the plane actually had an issue (likely related to the way it was being flown eg. It came apart due to a high g manoeuvre).

    Obviously we would all be shocked if the primary cause wasn't attributed to the pilot but there is still a chance that the plane contributed.

  14. #34
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by FullMotoJacket View Post
    Regardless of how it was marketed, Icon had a responsible flyer clause in the original purchase agreements for the A5. The updated (May) agreement states that the pilot waives his right to sue if the NTSB finds no fault of the plane in a crash. Halliday would have had to have signed the updated purchase agreement to buy the plane. I'd be shocked if the NTSB rules against Icon after examining the FDR and the footage of his antics prior to the crash. His estate is SOL as far as a lawsuit goes (but it is 'Murica. ya never know).

    https://www.flyingmag.com/icon-throw...hase-agreement
    I dunno if that waiver would hold up, due to their active role in marketing it
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  15. #35
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    If you read up on wiki about NTSB...it's very clear that their reports cannot be admitted for civil litigation.

    Waivers can be challenged. And the Halladay estate has means to mount a strong challenge should they choose to do so.

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaFan View Post
    If you read up on wiki about NTSB...it's very clear that their reports cannot be admitted for civil litigation.

    Waivers can be challenged. And the Halladay estate has means to mount a strong challenge should they choose to do so.

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    The NTSB report would provide a good basis for independent reports

    Roy may have signed a waiver but did his wife and children? They have been deprived of income and companionship etc. Waivers only keep the dead from suing.

  17. #37

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Preliminary NTSB report is pretty much as expected. In case anyone wants to look it up NTSB No. is ANC18FA007

    http://www.cp24.com/sports/roy-halla...-say-1.3686344

    The National Transportation Safety Board didn't place blame for the crash in the preliminary report released Monday. It says witnesses and the plane's data recorder show Halladay was flying as low as 11 feet (3.3 metres) above the Gulf of Mexico in the minutes before the Nov. 7 crash near Tampa.

    A witness told investigators Halladay's ICON A5 climbed to between 300 and 500 feet (90 and 150 metres) before it went into a 45-degree dive and slammed into the water.

    Full report in ~ two years.

    EDIT: Excerpts from NTSB report (that's a lot of manoeuvreing below 100', eek. He really was flying like a noob on an SS.):
    then descended to 36 ft over the water before turning south. The
    airplane then flew on southerly track past Green Key Beach at 11 ft GPS altitude and 92 knots.
    The airplane then performed a right 360 turn while climbing to about 100 ft. The airplane
    continued on a southerly track, flying as close as 75 ft to the Gulf Harbor South Beach houses.
    The last data point recovered indicated the airplane at an altitude of 200 ft, a speed of 87
    knots, and tracking 196. Video footage taken of the airplane before the accident, shows the
    airplane in a descending left 45 banked turn and then maneuvering about 10 ft above the
    water.

    The pilot's logbook indicated that he had logged a total of 703.9 flight hours, of which 51.8
    hours were in an Icon A5 airplane, and 14.5 hours were in the accident airplane.
    Last edited by GreyGhost; 11-20-2017 at 10:04 PM.

  18. #38
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyGhost View Post
    flying as close as 75 ft to the Gulf Harbor South Beach houses.
    Randy Rhoads anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyGhost View Post
    The pilot's logbook indicated that he had logged a total of 703.9 flight hours, of which 51.8
    hours were in an Icon A5 airplane, and 14.5 hours were in the accident airplane.
    Hollywood type stunting by essentially a rookie. What could possibly go wrong?
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  19. #39
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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by nobbie48 View Post
    The NTSB report would provide a good basis for independent reports

    Roy may have signed a waiver but did his wife and children? They have been deprived of income and companionship etc. Waivers only keep the dead from suing.
    waivers keep the poor from suing...and are generally useless when challenged
    Halladay had 25 years of earning potential left
    wife and 2 kids used to a very comfortable lifestyle
    yeah, I'd expect them to sue

  20. #40

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    Re: Roy Halliday Dies

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaFan View Post
    waivers keep the poor from suing...and are generally useless when challenged
    Halladay had 25 years of earning potential left
    wife and 2 kids used to a very comfortable lifestyle
    yeah, I'd expect them to sue
    And given the numbers involved, they will have no shortage of lawyers lining up to help them. Finding a lawyer to help the minimum wage earner would be much harder even though their family probably needs the money more.

    I wonder what amount of insurance airplane manufacturers carry? Obviously Icon isn't Boeing or Bombardier, there is almost no capital in the company, whatever money is won in a lawsuit is in the liability policy. This will likely be a much much lower number than 25 years of Halliday's earning potential. Is it possible that Halliday's family end up owning Icon? The policy won't be big enough, about Icon has worth money is an airplane design and associated manufacturing operation. Instead of going bankrupt if they lost, could ownership transfer to Mrs. Halliday to save the company?
    Last edited by GreyGhost; 11-21-2017 at 11:59 AM.

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