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  1. #421
    matt365's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

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    There is nothing wrong with washing your bike with a pressure washer. I wouldn't blast the chain from an inch away or anything... don't want to blow lubricant out behind the o-rings and force water in... other than that, no big deal.

    Macdoc, salt gets into the linkage. Kills bearings, eats chains... I wouldn't just leave it on there. I did that last season... figured it was a light dusting of salt and it wouldn't matter... it did.
    Now I hit certain trouble spots with rust proofing spray, just in-case.

    Not saying don't ride in the cold, just prepare for it.


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  2. #422

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    ASTM B117
    It's one of the oldest American Society for Testing and Materials corrosion test procedures; Basically it is where they spray a test material with salt water to exponentially accelerate a corrosion process. Pretty sure it works too because they've been testing materials that way since the 1930's.


  3. #423

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by matt365 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with washing your bike with a pressure washer. I wouldn't blast the chain from an inch away or anything... don't want to blow lubricant out behind the o-rings and force water in... other than that, no big deal.

    Macdoc, salt gets into the linkage. Kills bearings, eats chains... I wouldn't just leave it on there. I did that last season... figured it was a light dusting of salt and it wouldn't matter... it did.
    Now I hit certain trouble spots with rust proofing spray, just in-case.

    Not saying don't ride in the cold, just prepare for it.


    Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk
    This is the truth. Just common sense really.

  4. #424
    MacDoc's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Pressure washers are often recycled water

    salt gets into the linkage. Kills bearings, eats chains.
    Does neither of those ... if they are lubed and even then salt is not grit ...it's a fragile crystal and much of what is used is not sodium chloride at all. Salt acts chemically on certain metals especially in the presence of dissimilar metals and that only happens in the presence of moisture. Salty water blown into the wiring loom - especially with third part add ons can cause problems....the manufacturers are well aware and take care to design connectors etc to be weather proof and corrosion resistant.

    I'll refer you to this definitive post on chains.
    http://www.stromtrooper.com/4975266-post35.html

    Sand tho ....that's a chain killer and you need to lube well or you get a lot of sprocket wear. Just lube the chain regularly and move on ....skip the cleaning unless there is sand and then a wipe off plus lube is all you need.
    Last edited by MacDoc; 12-08-2017 at 10:11 AM.

    Ontario Canada rider staying in Cairns Australian for 3 months each year Feb to May
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  5. #425
    Moderator V-Tom's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by MacDoc View Post
    Pressure washers are often recycled water


    Does neither of those ... if they are lubed and even then salt is not grit ...it's a fragile crystal and much of what is used is not sodium chloride at all. Salt acts chemically on certain metals especially in the presence of dissimilar metals and that only happens in the presence of moisture. Salty water blown into the wiring loom - especially with third part add ons can cause problems....the manufacturers are well aware and take care to design connectors etc to be weather proof and corrosion resistant.

    I'll refer you to this definitive post on chains.
    http://www.stromtrooper.com/4975266-post35.html

    Sand tho ....that's a chain killer and you need to lube well or you get a lot of sprocket wear. Just lube the chain regularly and move on ....skip the cleaning unless there is sand and then a wipe off plus lube is all you need.

    I don't even think the wipe-off is needed except for cosmetic reasons.

    FWIW my last chain was replaced at 76,180 km, about 47,200 miles, and was never cleaned in any way shape or form. Not even after being coated with sand after riding about ten miles on a sandy beach in North Carolina:




    It was in such great shape when I replaced it that I am aiming for 100,000 km on the current chain. I do replace the front sprockets about halfway though my expected chain life and did the first front sprocket on my current bike at 43,634 km. It could have gone longer but I was at a tire change interval so it made sense to do then.

    Here is how the chain typically looks:



    ..Tom

  6. #426
    Moderator Wingboy's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    "if they are lubed"

    People don't ride around on freshly lubed machines.Lube degrades over time and miles and leaves room for invasion of unwanted debris regardless of how well sealed they are.Esp when exposed to 2,000 psi water.Bikes are very seldom are on the road below freezing when liquids aren't present.They are on the road when things are slushy and in a "brine" state.If all the seals and electrical connections were nice soft supple silicon bits,it wouldn't be much of a worry.But they aren't.
    My trialer linkage comes apart 2 or 3 times a year to lube,and it needs it.Buy a new bike every few years and it won't be a problem.Not the real world tho.
    "If ya want me,I'll be in the bar"
    Ric Waterloo

    2001 1800 Goldwing
    2011 Ossa TR280i
    1976 Yamaha TY175

  7. #427

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by V-Tom View Post
    I don't even think the wipe-off is needed except for cosmetic reasons.

    FWIW my last chain was replaced at 76,180 km, about 47,200 miles, and was never cleaned in any way shape or form. Not even after being coated with sand after riding about ten miles on a sandy beach in North Carolina:

    It was in such great shape when I replaced it that I am aiming for 100,000 km on the current chain. I do replace the front sprockets about halfway though my expected chain life and did the first front sprocket on my current bike at 43,634 km. It could have gone longer but I was at a tire change interval so it made sense to do then.

    ...
    Is there any wonder you replace sprockets more frequently then chains! Your motorcycle is disgusting! Buy a new chain and lay it along side your old chain to compare the length, that is the only real way to know if your chain is bagged out to the point it starts to degrade performance and destroy sprockets. Read up on chain and sprocket design and you will discover that 4% elongation of a chain is considered due for replacement.

    & when was a salted road ever free of moisture unless it was way too cold for the salt to still do its damage :/ road salt reduces the melting point of snow and ice, that's how it works, snow or ice plus road salt = salt water spray.

  8. #428
    Robbo's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    It’s true that salt is a catalyst to corrosion of certain metals in the presence of water.

    I personally don’t want the sand, small stones and other road debris kicked up by all the cagers...peppering the bike and damaging the paint and shiny bits...and possibly create some other issues down the road.

    I too wouldn’t go for a ride in winter on a good day...not worth it.

    To each his own, I guess.

  9. #429
    Moderator V-Tom's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    Is there any wonder you replace sprockets more frequently then chains! Your motorcycle is disgusting! Buy a new chain and lay it along side your old chain to compare the length, that is the only real way to know if your chain is bagged out to the point it starts to degrade performance and destroy sprockets. Read up on chain and sprocket design and you will discover that 4% elongation of a chain is considered due for replacement.

    & when was a salted road ever free of moisture unless it was way too cold for the salt to still do its damage :/ road salt reduces the melting point of snow and ice, that's how it works, snow or ice plus road salt = salt water spray.
    Thank you about my bike being disgusting! My bike is made for riding not for just sitting there looking at it. I ride it and don't waste much time cleaning it. I do spray it down once in a while and do also make sure to wipe of the headlights, tail lights and turn signals when my bike is coated with salty road spray (which happens a lot lately!) I spray ACF50 on electrical switches etc and try and regularly lube sidestand, centerstand, shift linkage, lever pivot points, etc.

    Did you go to and read the link Macdoc posted?

    I think you misread my post. The front sprocket get replaced about half way through my expected chain (and rear sprocket) life. Usually when the chain has been replaced the rear sprocket is in pretty good shape but I generally replace it with the chain just because.


    How often do you replace sprockets and chains? Most people I know have worn out their chain and sprockets before they have hit 50,000 km. The last few chains I have had were all in good shape according to the mechanic that replaced them and he advised against changing them at that time. I am aiming to put 100,000 km on the current chain so I will replace the front sprocket around the 50,000 km mark. My experience is that the front sprockets are toast by about 70,000 km. (This is not something I read on the internet, this is my experience in riding 3 V-Stroms a total of about 450,000 km since summer of 2006.)


    ..Tom

  10. #430
    Moderator V-Tom's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    ...
    & when was a salted road ever free of moisture unless it was way too cold for the salt to still do its damage :/ road salt reduces the melting point of snow and ice, that's how it works, snow or ice plus road salt = salt water spray.
    I never said otherwise! I don't see that it makes much difference in how a bike lasts and I certainly haven't seen much issues with it corrosion wise.

    I thought you would like the following:



    The picture above is of my 2006 DL650 V-Strom. I got caught in freezing rain on the way home one night. That bike saw lots of salted, brined roads and I retired it in 2012 with 202,000+ km on it when I bought my 2012 DL650. The 2006 sat in my hanger for about 5 years unattended and was taken over this fall by a friend as a project bike. He hasn't ridden it yet but has fired up the motor.

    I sold my 2012 DL650 when it had about 139,500 km after I bought my 2015 V-Strom DL1000. That bike lived outside all it's life except the first few months I had it. It usually was under a cover at home (although never at work) but sometimes it wasn't covered at home:





    My 2015 DL1000 V-Strom has lived an easier life in that it lives in a heated garage. I bought it summer of 2015 and it has a bit over 108,000 km on it.

    Here is how the sand got on the chain area:



    Please ntoe that on this particular ride on the beach I went about 5 miles out and realized the hard sand was disappearing as the tide was coming in. Turned around and headed back .By the time I got to the end of the beach I was riding it in and out of the edge of the ocean so the bottom of the bike got a nice coating of salt water as well as the sand.



    I put winter tires on it in case I get caught in snow (I got caught last year.. an inmate here saw me riding on snow on 407 but don't intend to ride in snow!) I did did get caught in a heavy streamer just before getting home a few weeks ago. The roads were fine but the bike and I got coated with wet snow that quickly froze on us. This picture doesn't do it justice:





    ..Tom

  11. #431

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Intimately familiar with how sand damages motorcycles, I rode motocross for several decades.

    I'm anal about cleaning my motorcycles and the same can probably be said about my replacing of chains, but half my motorcycles don't have an odometer so milage means nothing, I would need to relate it to hours of operation or number of events ridden and even that would be a guess, I service things frequently and replace disposable parts when they appear worn out. Not a good candidate for being impressed with how neglected a motorcycle can be and still function, don't feel too bad I tell lots of people their bike looks disgusting dirty



    I just built a new house with in-floor heated garage no more winterizing of motorcycles and sea-doo for this boy, from now on I can just hop on and ride the snow banks year round, then bring em back in to clean and lubricate them ready for the next ride.

    If you want to see how salted winter roads and Toronto humidity kills the life expectancy your vehicles, you need not look any further then your car or truck. Motor vehicles are absolutely rife with dissimilar metals in contact with one another, places to collect moisture & chlorides and parts that are subject to rust or corrosion, nothing new about that, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not doing any damage.

  12. #432

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    @V-Tom, I read your post - and trying to figure out the the takeaway point...

    You lube your chain after every fill up and after it rains, effectively keeping it pretty clean (regardless of salt or not), no? I would suspect that's actually a lot more chain maintenance than most riders, myself included (hence why I couldn't be bothered to ride in the salty conditions). It appears you may be saying kerosene is bad for you chain, but you didn't flat out say that either(?)

  13. #433

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Any discussion on chain maintenance needs to begin with what type of chain you are servicing, is it a plain roller chain (non-sealed)
    or a so called maintenance free chain, aka o-ring, x-ring or whatever rubber sealed chain.
    Huge difference in cost, cleaning maintenance and lubricating.

  14. #434
    Moderator V-Tom's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor T View Post
    @V-Tom, I read your post - and trying to figure out the the takeaway point...

    You lube your chain after every fill up and after it rains, effectively keeping it pretty clean (regardless of salt or not), no? I would suspect that's actually a lot more chain maintenance than most riders, myself included (hence why I couldn't be bothered to ride in the salty conditions). It appears you may be saying kerosene is bad for you chain, but you didn't flat out say that either(?)
    I don't know that kerosene (or cleaning for the matter) is bad for the chain, I only can say that my chains lasted way longer when I stopped cleaning them and started lubing with every tank of gas and after every ride in the rain. If I was inclined to "clean" the chain it would be no more than a wipe down with a cloth that was damp with kerosene but I don't see any real reason to do so.

    I think the lube probably does a good job of cleaning where it matters (if it matters.) I also feel that taking a brush to the chain is bad as it can easily damage the o-rings, and I feel that any cleaning whose purpose is more than cosmetic can harm the chain as well. Once I started doing the lube often and stopped cleaning I rarely needed to adjust chain (I think the only real adjustment relates to front sprocket wear) and my chains were in great shape even at 70,000 to close to 80,000 km in spite of living in a very dirty environment.

    As far as the time taken to lube the chain it literally is in the 10 to 20 second mark each time. I gas up on the way home. Pull in my driveway, put it in neutral and put my bike on the centerstand. I get my can of lube from my tank bag, rotate the rear wheel with my right hand while spraying lube on the chain with my left hand. One day I'll make a video of it. You don't need a lot of lube and I haven't found any difference as to top of bottom of the chain as long as I spray on the right and left side of the chain in the area where the sideplates are overlapping. Sometimes I take a few extra seconds and spray some lube on the rollers but I don't think it's needed as the lube splashes around a bit and creeps all over the chain anyway.

    ..Tom

  15. #435
    Moderator V-Tom's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    Intimately familiar with how sand damages motorcycles, I rode motocross for several decades.

    I'm anal about cleaning my motorcycles and the same can probably be said about my replacing of chains, but half my motorcycles don't have an odometer so milage means nothing, I would need to relate it to hours of operation or number of events ridden and even that would be a guess, I service things frequently and replace disposable parts when they appear worn out. Not a good candidate for being impressed with how neglected a motorcycle can be and still function, don't feel too bad I tell lots of people their bike looks disgusting dirty


    I just built a new house with in-floor heated garage no more winterizing of motorcycles and sea-doo for this boy, from now on I can just hop on and ride the snow banks year round, then bring em back in to clean and lubricate them ready for the next ride.

    If you want to see how salted winter roads and Toronto humidity kills the life expectancy your vehicles, you need not look any further then your car or truck. Motor vehicles are absolutely rife with dissimilar metals in contact with one another, places to collect moisture & chlorides and parts that are subject to rust or corrosion, nothing new about that, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not doing any damage.
    I don't get offended by forum discussions!


    Congrats on the new house and garage! Based on your username I suspect you ride trials a lot. I have the utmost respect for trials riding.. what you guys do looks like magic to me! As far as hours of riding go.. do trials bikes even have a Hobbs meter (hour meter?) They are so stripped down that would surprise me. (By the way my co-worker sitting behind me ran the Baja 1000 on a dirt bike several years ago.)


    Hmm.. I got rid of my last car with 328,000 km. on it. I bought it new in 2002 and I retired it in 2015. It was mainly driven in winter and I think it wore out from sitting around too much in the summer.

    I really have no argument about the damage sand, salt and winter does to vehicles. Just that it is overstated on bikes ridden on our roads - some people seem to think that the first touch of salt their bike will decompose into a pile of rust. I suspect if you weren't riding a lot and wanted to keep the bike forever and have it look nice for your living room it would be a big deal but I ride a lot and the bikes get high mileage on them long before rust can be any real issue.

    The products you mention above about rust prevention were rated on steel panels. The ACF50 is rated for use on airplanes and will not harm electrical connections while preventing corrosion there. I started using it a few years ago but in honesty never had any electrical connection issues on my 2006 V-Strom. I mentioned it previously that I spray it in electrical connections and switch-gear as a preventative measure.

    ..Tom

  16. #436

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Is all good, yep my trials bikes are completely stripped of anything superfluous to competition.

    ... only posted that image of corrosion testing for general interest, no intention to promote products or anything. There are not a lot of pics to show of ASTM corrosion testing that I could find, that one just kinda jumped out. I tend to keep all my vehicles for a very long time.

  17. #437

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by V-Tom View Post
    I don't know that kerosene (or cleaning for the matter) is bad for the chain, I only can say that my chains lasted way longer when I stopped cleaning them and started lubing with every tank of gas and after every ride in the rain. If I was inclined to "clean" the chain it would be no more than a wipe down with a cloth that was damp with kerosene but I don't see any real reason to do so.

    I think the lube probably does a good job of cleaning where it matters (if it matters.) I also feel that taking a brush to the chain is bad as it can easily damage the o-rings, and I feel that any cleaning whose purpose is more than cosmetic can harm the chain as well. Once I started doing the lube often and stopped cleaning I rarely needed to adjust chain (I think the only real adjustment relates to front sprocket wear) and my chains were in great shape even at 70,000 to close to 80,000 km in spite of living in a very dirty environment.

    As far as the time taken to lube the chain it literally is in the 10 to 20 second mark each time. I gas up on the way home. Pull in my driveway, put it in neutral and put my bike on the centerstand. I get my can of lube from my tank bag, rotate the rear wheel with my right hand while spraying lube on the chain with my left hand. One day I'll make a video of it. You don't need a lot of lube and I haven't found any difference as to top of bottom of the chain as long as I spray on the right and left side of the chain in the area where the sideplates are overlapping. Sometimes I take a few extra seconds and spray some lube on the rollers but I don't think it's needed as the lube splashes around a bit and creeps all over the chain anyway.

    ..Tom
    I'll try the no brush thing next time, thanks.

    I guess my point is that someone using your post as an example for dismissing the effects of salt on a motorcycle chain is probably missing the fact that you lube your chain a lot more than most riders and that you use a centre stand which makes the job pretty trivial.

  18. #438
    Moderator V-Tom's Avatar
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    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor T View Post
    I'll try the no brush thing next time, thanks.

    I guess my point is that someone using your post as an example for dismissing the effects of salt on a motorcycle chain is probably missing the fact that you lube your chain a lot more than most riders and that you use a centre stand which makes the job pretty trivial.
    Easy answer is to lube the chain more often. It is easy to do.

    I used a Pack-Jack on my wifes's gladius in the past and it added and extra half-minute or so to setup. (Actually if we were both there I could lean it over on the sidestand and she could spin the rear while I sprayed. Still only took seconds to do.)

    ..Tom

  19. #439

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trials View Post
    Is all good, yep my trials bikes are completely stripped of anything superfluous to competition.
    Aren't trials bikes the very definition of motorcycles stripped of the superfluous for (very specific) competition? Or do they come with extra stuff for...the street? I don't think I've ever seen one in person.
    If getting the bike ready and getting around with it means you'd rather take the car? You have the wrong bike.

    -crankcall-

  20. #440

    Re: Who's still riding? (Fall 2017 / Winter 2018 edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by V-Tom View Post
    Easy answer is to lube the chain more often. It is easy to do.

    I used a Pack-Jack on my wifes's gladius in the past and it added and extra half-minute or so to setup. (Actually if we were both there I could lean it over on the sidestand and she could spin the rear while I sprayed. Still only took seconds to do.)

    ..Tom
    Fair enough. I tried a pack-jack once, kinda scared me LOL. I get enough 'excitement' using a rear stand by myself.

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