OPP: Number of fatal motorcycle collisions in GTA 'very alarming'

jc100 said:

Graduated licensing, the great leveller. Pretty sure it gets rid of a lot of the posing and ego driven behaviour in the UK...at least that's my experience.

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The 3 riders that died in the 507 crash were in their early forties. I was expecting half that age. If licencing graduated by bike type is determined by skill I think these guys would have been able to get unrestricted licences as required elsewhere.

The problem is attitude and thrill seeking. A skilled rider isn't a necessarily a good rider.

Not necessarily - one of the things my partner asked me about motorcycling is "Is this a middle age thing" - I assured her I was riding since I was 17 ....but the guys in their 40s have the money and lower insurance to get into the high powered bikes but often are still rather new to riding.

In a graduated system they would have to go through the same time delay and training as young rider.
My riding buddy in AUstralia could not ride my ST1100 even though he was incredibly experienced and a far better rider than me....he would have to get into the open licence program and had no interest.

nobbie48 said:

The 3 riders that died in the 507 crash were in their early forties. I was expecting half that age. If licencing graduated by bike type is determined by skill I think these guys would have been able to get unrestricted licences as required elsewhere.

The problem is attitude and thrill seeking. A skilled rider isn't a necessarily a good rider.

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I may have this wrong, but didn't one guy cross the center line way above the 80kmph limit (at about 150kmph or so) and hit 2 riders coming in the opposite direction? If so, your comment applies to the one rider and the other two were just innocent victims in the wrong place when the person riding way too fast ran wide on one of the first corners after the start of the 507 at Flynn's.

nobbie48 said:

The 3 riders that died in the 507 crash were in their early forties. I was expecting half that age. If licencing graduated by bike type is determined by skill I think these guys would have been able to get unrestricted licences as required elsewhere.

The problem is attitude and thrill seeking. A skilled rider isn't a necessarily a good rider.

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MacDoc said:

Not necessarily - one of the things my partner asked me about motorcycling is "Is this a middle age thing" - I assured her I was riding since I was 17 ....but the guys in their 40s have the money and lower insurance to get into the high powered bikes but often are still rather new to riding.

In a graduated system they would have to go through the same time delay and training as young rider.

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See the video recently posted here where the 40ish yo rider with 15,000 km under his belt in 2 years did a 507 run on an RT1200 where he was waiting for his buddy to catch up as his buddy had a 200 km/h limiter (as well as weaving through riders in formation in the same lane, passing in corners, wobbling all over the road etc).

Stupidity is not the exclusive territory of young people. When in a large group ride it just gets worse. You have pack mentality, testosterone fog, some expectation of protection from a ticket (they can't get all of you normally), some riders beyond their abilities etc.

I still think that one of the major reasons graduated licensing works is it weeds out many people that have no business riding on the roads in the first place. Someone that truly loves riding has no problem starting on a slower bike. Many people that start on SS do it for bragging/showing off which never ends well. Many with the wrong attitude would never start riding if it meant riding a slow bike for years first.

FWIW, I think similar graduated rules should apply to boats. In the old days you would start on a tinny with a 9.9 as a kid, now 40ish yo men buy bass boats capable of 80mph with no prior experience and they are a menace on the water.

Skyway6 said:

where did they pull the 36 deaths from for last year? According to this
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/publications/pdfs/preliminary-2016-orsar-selected-statistics.pdf

there were 56 motorcycle deaths in 2016. 483 people died in all motor vehicle accidents. (56 of that were motorcycles)
226 were drivers. 82 passengers. 96 pedestrians. 15 bicyclists. why is that not alarming?

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So if you like manipulating numbers to back up your agenda, you could say that it is safer to ride a motorcycle than it is to be a pedestrian.

ReSTored said:

I may have this wrong, but didn't one guy cross the center line way above the 80kmph limit (at about 150kmph or so) and hit 2 riders coming in the opposite direction? If so, your comment applies to the one rider and the other two were just innocent victims in the wrong place when the person riding way too fast ran wide on one of the first corners after the start of the 507 at Flynn's.

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The way I understand it is 11 riders were going very fast. 1 blew a corner, glanced off an oncoming bike and went head on into a following bike (both head on riders died). The third rider that died was part of the fast group, not sure exactly what happened to him, whether he was the one that went into the ditch or hit the car trying to avoid the accident or if he was taken out by something from the first crash.

EDIT: just reread the global article.

One of the lead riders in the fast pack started the mess and died. The sweep rider in the fast pack crashed into a car avoiding the wreck and died. If the sweep can't possibly avoid a crash at the front of the group, do you think they were going a reasonable speed?

I suspect there will be a perp walk soon where this entire group will get 172 and dangerous driving charges.

In NZ back in the day (80s and 90s) we had to stick to 250cc and under for 2 years. This was reduced to maybe 18mths if you did an advanced riding course which I did. It wasnt just rising skills, You learned a lot about controlling yourself as you slid down to the road (helped me twice), and other aspects of riding.
You couldn't ride at night with passengers or drink.


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kiwi said:

In NZ back in the day (80s and 90s) we had to stick to 250cc and under for 2 years. This was reduced to maybe 18mths if you did an advanced riding course which I did. It wasnt just rising skills, You learned a lot about controlling yourself as you slid down to the road (helped me twice), and other aspects of riding.
You couldn't ride at night with passengers or drink.


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I think this would be a great idea. Helps stop idiots like me from starting on a 650 :^)

I think the passenger aspect of M2 is a little silly. There should be a 2-3 month period AFTER receiving your M2 before you can ride with passengers. I am constantly learning new things as I ride, and can't imagine how they would have held up with a passenger. I guess that is what the M1 period is for, but I couldn't justify buying a bike with the sunset/sunrise restriction, so essentially same day I got my M2 was the same day I learned to ride my bike (apart from the course). Maybe if that was lifted, and they limited to 300cc, that would have been more appealing.

AES said:

I think this would be a great idea. Helps stop idiots like me from starting on a 650 :^)

I think the passenger aspect of M2 is a little silly. There should be a 2-3 month period AFTER receiving your M2 before you can ride with passengers. I am constantly learning new things as I ride, and can't imagine how they would have held up with a passenger. I guess that is what the M1 period is for, but I couldn't justify buying a bike with the sunset/sunrise restriction, so essentially same day I got my M2 was the same day I learned to ride my bike (apart from the course). Maybe if that was lifted, and they limited to 300cc, that would have been more appealing.

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That's the point exactly, you are still at the beginning of the curve and learning and getting better every day. They are trying to minimize casualties and bikes handling changes a lot with a passenger on. They want you to be fully comfortable with you and the bike before you add an additional unnecessary complication. Secondly, 2 to 3 months after your M2 could be 0 km for many people, especially if they get their M2 late in the season.

PS. A 650 is a great first bike (assuming it isn't too tall for you to be comfortable)

油井緋色;2519894 said:

Well....this is what happens when you let a rider with near zero experience ride something they can't handle.

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That cannot be the reason! Blame the BMWs--the sedans, not the bikes

"Ten of those killed were between the ages of 45 and 54 and seven were between 55 and 64."

This was the part of that news that caught my attention.
I would be interested to know how many of these 17 accidents were new drivers or people who had gotten the motorcycle bug very late in life for one reason or another.
Mid life, peers into it, romanticism etc...

I fall within this age range (the first one lol) and have been on bikes (and various other forms of motorized toys) for as far back as I can remember.
I have had my full M since 18 yrs old and have rarely been without a motorcycle (street and/or dirt) for long.
I consider myself at the same risk as everyone else and have always driven a bike on the road like I am invisible.
That being said...I remember very well the feelings I had driving some of my first motorcycles.
Undescribable!
"You mean i do not have to peddle this thing? I just twist here and it goes? That is soooo coool!!!"

I also remember being 18 and getting my license and first road bike.
Like most that age I was full as piss and vinegar (some say I still am) and was indestructible.
I pushed my limits and have paid the price in some form or another.
I wear full gear...have for a very long time.
Lets face it...speaking for myself...I am still an 18 yr old at heart BUT I have some significant years of riding experience and a very healthy fear of riding on the road.

Now imagine you have always wanted to do the motorcycle thing ever since you were a kid.
Couple of your friends had dirt bikes and you envied them cuz ma said to you, "No way you are getting one of those!"
As you got older you always admired motorcycles from afar.
Maybe even watching motocross, MotoGP and other forms of two wheeled motorized racing.
Staring at them from the safe cage you drive.
Getting a lil excited if one goes blasting by you on the highway.
Loving the rumble of a nice Harley as it goes by.
Whatever floats your boat.
At the end of the day you have always loved motorcycles and wanted to drive one but life took over and for a laundry list of reason, it never happened.

Now fast forward to your late 40's - 50's - 60's.
Kids are older or gone.
Got some disposable income.
Know some buds who ride.
Buy a bike.

Now before people pounce on me, I am not saying people should not buy a motorcycle later in life with no previous experience.
Hell, read that above...wtf...who would not?!?!? I would!!!
It was just a part of the news article that caught my attention and I would be interested in know some additional details as others have already stated.
Graduated licensing in theory should be about advancing and maybe that should also be applied to the cc's of the bike, maybe weight, hp, automatic vs manuals...I dunno.
Maybe that is a non issue if the majority of these accidents were not the motorcyclist fault...which i would also suspect.

redneckhillbilly said:

[...]

Now fast forward to your late 40's - 50's - 60's.
Kids are older or gone.
Got some disposable income.
Know some buds who ride.
Buy a bike.

Now before people pounce on me, I am not saying people should not buy a motorcycle later in life with no previous experience.
Hell, read that above...wtf...who would not?!?!? I would!!!
It was just a part of the news article that caught my attention and I would be interested in know some additional details as others have already stated.
Graduated licensing in theory should be about advancing and maybe that should also be applied to the cc's of the bike, maybe weight, hp, automatic vs manuals...I dunno.
Maybe that is a non issue if the majority of these accidents were not the motorcyclist fault...which i would also suspect.

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To be honest, that's exactly why i jumped the gun on my moto. I had the license for 2-3 years, but kiddo had come along. And i knew that if i didnt pull the trigger now, it just wouldnt happen, and i'd rather learn late 20s-30s than learn in the 40s-50s-60s

I honestly am all for graduated cylindrical licensing... but then people scream that its a "nanny state" to be observing rules that are being followed in tons of more "mature" countries, that have motorcycles as a much bigger demographic of vehicles on the road..you'd think they'd know a lil better how to get it done properly.

Easiest skill to learn on a bike is how to go REALLY fast. corners, braking, safe lane changes and guessing telemetry and velocity are way harder. If all you got is fast, guess what the outcome usually is.

I'm a huge fan of graduated licenses. It didnt fix stupid in cars completely , but i think it helped.

crankcall said:

Easiest skill to learn on a bike is how to go REALLY fast. corners, braking, safe lane changes and guessing telemetry and velocity are way harder. If all you got is fast, guess what the outcome usually is.

I'm a huge fan of graduated licenses. It didnt fix stupid in cars completely , but i think it helped.

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Well, I hate to say it, but the system for driving safely is broken across the entire world and it is why we need automated vehicles.

All humans learn the same way: from failures. In order to learn how to operate a vehicle correctly, we need to make mistakes and have a direct action that makes us realize "oh ****, I did something wrong." This is really obvious with motorcycles because the risk of a mistake causing a crash is significantly higher than in a car.

However, legal roads have everything against learning when it comes to motor vehicles. Not only are there laws set against learning, but insurance companies will rape you if you make a mistake. So if we can't learn legally or safely on the road, the only other option is to go through professional schooling.

Very few will do the above unless they are forced to. I can see a lot of idiots crying about this. Especially the ones who think "I'll never get into an accident" or "I'm a great driver/rider"

What i have learned from this thread

1. Learning to ride early is better than learning to ride late

2. Your better off crashing at 25 than 45

3. Riders shouldn't get a break just because they are older, what is wrong with a 45 year old starting on a 300cc?

OPP Sgt. Kerry Schmidt is very alarmed. Unfortunately he is not alarmed enough to actually release any useful information on the causes and circumstances of any of these accidents. Perhaps we could all learn something from these tragedies if only the OPP could expend a little more effort in the press release. Other than sensationalism, whats the point? I just don't get it.

^^^ +++

Time to add an upvote button to this app?

Well, I hate to say it, but the system for driving safely is broken across the entire world and it is why we need automated vehicles.

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Funny - accidents and injuries have been dropping for decades.

MacDoc said:

Funny - accidents and injuries have been dropping for decades.

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Because more and more things have become automated.

ABS stops human error from locking the brakes on panic, and therefore reducing braking distance during a panic reaction.
TCS stops human error from hammering on the throttle past the point of no return, causing a spin out.
Vehicle engineering has also incorporated safety, whether through mandatory laws (seat belts, airbags) or simply good design (crumple zones to absorb impact).

Now we have lane swerving warnings, blind spot notifications, and cruiser control that automatically stays in the lane and matches the next car's speed.

The accidents and injuries have been dropping because the skill floor for operating a motor vehicle safely has been lowered substantially by removing human error out of the equation and making a far more reliable computer AI do the work.

EDIT:
Motorcycles only recently started shifting the responsibility of operating safely to a computer. And that's why I'm willing to bet that motorcycle accident rates are far higher than cars.

油井緋色;2520883 said:

EDIT:
Motorcycles only recently started shifting the responsibility of operating safely to a computer. And that's why I'm willing to bet that motorcycle accident rates are far higher than cars.

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And motorcycles are inherently much less stable with very limited traction. A computer that works fine to control a car still falls flat on its face when put on a bike. You have much smaller contact patches and if either one loses traction for a split second in a corner you fall over. A car could have two or three wheels sliding with little impact other than less deceleration/going slightly wide in the corner as the sliding will be quickly dealt with by the computer.

And people push bikes harder than cars (IME). When was the last time you saw a car going 160+ through the 507? Sure, the ertefa guys like burnouts, drag racing on the street and top speed runs on the 407, but I have never heard of one trying to go around a corner so the chance of crashing goes way down.