Adjusting lines mid corner and Entry speed | GTAMotorcycle.com

Adjusting lines mid corner and Entry speed

bigpoppa

bigpoppa

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Few things

1. Adjusting line mid corner

As long as you don't brake,shift, or chop the throttle
mid corner, is it safe to adjust lines mid corner?


How many people do this?


2. Entry speed and smooth roll ons

I find myself sometimes dealing with fear/panic
mid corner, i know i should do the smooth roll on to keep
the bike as stable/planted as possible
(to help with weight/suspension distribution)


I found earlier in my riding i felt more confident
when i just kept the throttle nuetral, so i wasnt rolling
on or off, and kept the speed just maintained, but no
acceleration or deacceleration (Is it better to smoothly roll on or just keep it neutral?)

I just want to feel more planted and confident
while im in the turns(especially if the pace picks up)

What am I doing wrong? Is my entry speed too high?
Should i slow down more before i approach the corner
so as to not go faster than my abilities mid corner?


My fear might also have something to do with the fact
that by the time im near the end of the corner, the bike is
screaming, and the sound alters my perception of speed
making me think im going faster than i actually am


Thanks
 
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If you're screaming out of the corner and uncomfortable then go up a gear. Being in a higher gear is easier to control anyway and yes you can change lines, brake ect in a corner when going normal speeds but when you're going fast then you need to be dedicated and stick the line.

The fear/panic is human nature but controllable with seat time and and good self talk before riding. Good luck and stay safe.
 
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Planning to
 
To answer the questions of the moment.

1. Yes, you can adjust lines mid corner. "You go where you look" - so look where you want to go. Naturally, we do not WANT to adjust lines mid corner unless necessary, but you CAN; there certainly are times when it is necessary (e.g. something happens, or you spot a patch of sand, etc). So ... look where the obstruction ISN'T. Look for the clear pavement, the clear path through the corner. The concept of "traction circle" applies ... don't be simultaneously attempting to brake. It's normally OK to cut throttle if you have to tighten your line; this will automatically make the bike want to tighten its line.

This is not an excuse for turning a single corner into 4 apexes because you turned in too early, then straighten but overcorrect, turn in again, etc. That's just sloppiness ... which may come from inexperience.

2. Frequent error ... Turning in too early. There's not enough information to say if that's what you are describing ... but turning in too early happens ALL the time. If you turn in too early, you will run out of room at the exit of the corner, and if that happens, accelerating is the last thing you want to do. If you pick the correct turn-in point, it will feel natural to start accelerating through the corner. Once again, you go where you look, so look THROUGH the corner.

And I repeat ... any of the advanced riding schools will sort this out.
 
Brian P said:
To answer the questions of the moment.

1. Yes, you can adjust lines mid corner. "You go where you look" - so look where you want to go. Naturally, we do not WANT to adjust lines mid corner unless necessary, but you CAN; there certainly are times when it is necessary (e.g. something happens, or you spot a patch of sand, etc). So ... look where the obstruction ISN'T. Look for the clear pavement, the clear path through the corner. The concept of "traction circle" applies ... don't be simultaneously attempting to brake. It's normally OK to cut throttle if you have to tighten your line; this will automatically make the bike want to tighten its line.

This is not an excuse for turning a single corner into 4 apexes because you turned in too early, then straighten but overcorrect, turn in again, etc. That's just sloppiness ... which may come from inexperience.

2. Frequent error ... Turning in too early. There's not enough information to say if that's what you are describing ... but turning in too early happens ALL the time. If you turn in too early, you will run out of room at the exit of the corner, and if that happens, accelerating is the last thing you want to do. If you pick the correct turn-in point, it will feel natural to start accelerating through the corner. Once again, you go where you look, so look THROUGH the corner.

And I repeat ... any of the advanced riding schools will sort this out.
Click to expand...

Much thanks, i will look into the advanced riding schools
 
bigpoppa said:
is it safe to adjust lines mid corner?
Click to expand...

If it's on the street, then yes.

I'd estimate that most people, even when they claim they are riding "spiritedly" on public streets, are only using 30-50% of the bikes ability to maintain grip in the corner. There's a lot of room to make adjustments mid-corner without worrying about unsettling suspension, losing traction, or inadvertently gaining it and highsiding. Even when there's gravel or leaves or whatever on the ground.

The advice about not to adjust lines mid-corner is for the track when you're closer to 10/10ths and at the limits of traction, where sudden steering inputs can unsettle the bike and cause you to lose grip. At a high-enough level, you're probably also making use of the entire width of the track, going from curb to curb. Adjusting your line to go wider means you might end up in the grass or gravel. Adjusting your line tighter and you may tuck the front.

Not to say that you can't adjust your line at the track but it's just a less forgiving environment than the street. More critical to have the correct line and entry speed at the track.

bigpoppa said:
(Is it better to smoothly roll on or just keep it neutral?)
Click to expand...

Slow in, fast out.

It's both fun and safer if you enter a corner at a speed that you're comfortable with and then power out of the turn after the apex, than have to keep a neutral throttle or brake on the way out because you went in too hot. With practice your comfortable entry speed will creep up. It's just seat time.

bigpoppa said:
I just want to feel more planted and confident while im in the turns(especially if the pace picks up)
Click to expand...

This is a big red flag. If the pace picks up, ride your own ride. If you don't feel comfortable trying to keep up, then don't. If your riding buddies are worth riding with, they'll understand and wait for you and won't pressure you to keep up. If not, find a new riding group.
 
@bigpoppa have you watched Twist of the Wrist?

sent from my Purple LGG4 on the GTAM app
 
Joe Bass said:
@bigpoppa have you watched Twist of the Wrist?

sent from my Purple LGG4 on the GTAM app
Click to expand...

Yep

Lightcycle said:
If it's on the street, then yes.

I'd estimate that most people, even when they claim they are riding "spiritedly" on public streets, are only using 30-50% of the bikes ability to maintain grip in the corner. There's a lot of room to make adjustments mid-corner without worrying about unsettling suspension, losing traction, or inadvertently gaining it and highsiding. Even when there's gravel or leaves or whatever on the ground.

The advice about not to adjust lines mid-corner is for the track when you're closer to 10/10ths and at the limits of traction, where sudden steering inputs can unsettle the bike and cause you to lose grip. At a high-enough level, you're probably also making use of the entire width of the track, going from curb to curb. Adjusting your line to go wider means you might end up in the grass or gravel. Adjusting your line tighter and you may tuck the front.

Not to say that you can't adjust your line at the track but it's just a less forgiving environment than the street. More critical to have the correct line and entry speed at the track.



Slow in, fast out.

It's both fun and safer if you enter a corner at a speed that you're comfortable with and then power out of the turn after the apex, than have to keep a neutral throttle or brake on the way out because you went in too hot. With practice your comfortable entry speed will creep up. It's just seat time.



This is a big red flag. If the pace picks up, ride your own ride. If you don't feel comfortable trying to keep up, then don't. If your riding buddies are worth riding with, they'll understand and wait for you and won't pressure you to keep up. If not, find a new riding group.
Click to expand...


Got it, thanks
 
As others have said, unless you are riding 10/10 ths, you can change lines, brake, shift gears and roll on or off the throttle moderately anywhere in a turn. That panic feeling you have is why people target fixate, freeze vs. push, then wide on a corner because they feel they aren't going to make it through safely. In fact, their incorrect action actually causes the accident as relatively few ride anywhere near their bike's real cornering limits.

Read Proficient Motorcycling https://www.amazon.ca/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1889540536 and/or watch Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist series for riding skills.

For now it sounds as if you are riding too fast for your current skill or comfort level, slow down.

Just curious, what bike are you riding?
 
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Cbr500r
 
bigpoppa said:
Few things

1. Adjusting line mid corner

As long as you don't brake,shift, or chop the throttle
mid corner, is it safe to adjust lines mid corner?

How many people do this?

2. Entry speed and smooth roll ons

I find myself sometimes dealing with fear/panic
mid corner, i know i should do the smooth roll on to keep
the bike as stable/planted as possible
(to help with weight/suspension distribution)


I found earlier in my riding i felt more confident
when i just kept the throttle nuetral, so i wasnt rolling
on or off, and kept the speed just maintained, but no
acceleration or deacceleration (Is it better to smoothly roll on or just keep it neutral?)

I just want to feel more planted and confident
while im in the turns(especially if the pace picks up)

What am I doing wrong? Is my entry speed too high?
Should i slow down more before i approach the corner
so as to not go faster than my abilities mid corner?

My fear might also have something to do with the fact
that by the time im near the end of the corner, the bike is
screaming, and the sound alters my perception of speed
making me think im going faster than i actually am

Thanks
Click to expand...
I don't think it's possible to answer this specifically, everyone is different.

In general, it's always possible to adjust your line. Starting with the ideal, most stable attitude through a corner, which is somewhere around steady throttle to light acceleration. Outside of that range you're reducing your safety margin of grip more and more. Though it can still be a huge safety margin, if you're going slow and you're very smooth. As you said, smoothness is key to retain as much as possible of that safety margin of grip. A guy can crash at a snail's pace if he's a klutz.

Another variable is street vs. track. On the track a top rider is sliding the bike pretty much constantly and knows exactly how much grip they have by feel. On the road we can only guesstimate how much grip we have left, as sliding around on public roads is kamikaze level of stupid. So, how confident are you that you know the grip level of your bike? For the most part people FAR underestimate their tires' grip. Until the road gets a bit slick and then they sometimes forget to adjust their expectations and can have some nasty moments.

Something I noticed though is that your throttle seems to be controlled by someone else, since you said "what if the pace picks up?". In which case I'd suggest taking back control of the throttle yourself. If you're trying to keep up with Rossi wannabes on the street then you can expect all those butt-clenching moments to keep happening regardless of whatever else you do. The better way to get enjoyment out of street riding is what I noticed people I ride with tend to do, which is go into a corner too slow then accelerate through it. It's amateurish but it's pretty safe and rewarding. But definitely not the fastest.
 
You're over thinking this. Mid-corner adjustment and race lines are not your concern if you're worried about keeping up with your ride group. As others have said, you need to develop the confidence to ride your own ride and push the limits according to your timetable. Please don't try to keep up with anyone. The technical part of your questions have been answered, but the mantra is: Lean, lean lean and when you think you leaned as far as you can, LEAN more!
 
As BrianP mentioned above, "You go where you look".

Nowhere is this more important than when you're trying to negotiate a corner.

It's easy to "look where you want to go" when you're solo riding or leading, but in a group situation, it's tempting to just stare at the bike in front of you.

A little tip that I wished someone told me when I first started group riding is not to focus on the motorcycle in front of you. Instead look past the bike(s) at where the road disappears into the corner up ahead.

temp.jpg


In this picture, if you stare at the bike ahead (red arrow), the direction of your sight is pretty much straight into the outside of the turn. In the event of a panic, you'll keep going where the eyes are already looking... straight into the ditch. That's target fixation.

Instead, focus on two things:

(1) where the road is going (green arrow) and
(2) push-steering into that direction (right handlebar in this instance)

You're going to find your confidence in corners is going to improve by a huge amount.
 
Lightcycle said:
As BrianP mentioned above, "You go where you look".
Click to expand...

Good advice.

The other thing (last thing) I'd mention is that most groups of S or SS bikes I see riding anywhere, but in particular back roads ride way too close to each other. If everything goes well then I suppose this is fun as you're moving in a tight formation winding through back roads. However, this contributes to target fixation on the bike ahead of you and, more importantly, leaves you absolutely no time to react if the bike in front of you wipes out, slams on the brake to avoid a deer or whatever. YT has hundreds of videos showing riders dumping it in a corner and the rider behind them then runs into the bike lying on the road. Give yourself enough space to stop if you have to and ride your own ride.
 
Regarding the smooth roll on question, since others have answered the mid turn corrections. Roll on is better than neutral.

I don't know how you ride but by neutral I assume you're losing speed but there's no way to check this without staring at your speedo (with a camera is far easier than doing it mid corner lol)

Don't trust how you feel as how you feel is often riddled with noise and warps what is actually happening.

Most motorcycles are most stable with a 40/60 force distribution (front/back). Rolling on forces this. Once you get the hang of it you'll want to roll out of every turn, street or track, because you have far more control. This kind of distribution even leaves you room to adjust your lines mid corner.

Bottom line, however, is this sport's as much theoretical as applied. Reading won't do jack **** if you're too afraid to apply it so as others said, take some of those schools!

Happy riding.
 
Without knowing it, we are always adjusting lines as we make our way around every corner

And agree with the course suggestion, should really do it myself some day

But yes, should be on the throttle and accelerate past the apex...hard to teach yourself, but the weight transfer to rear tire is a good feeling, still not really comfortable doing it with right handers...don't know why
 
On the street, you should never be remotely close to the limit where you cannot adjust your line midcorner. Streets are unpredictable and if you are going hard enough you are stuck on a line, you will die soon enough. As your experience/skill improves, the actual speed you can carry while being able to adapt for problems will increase.

On a track, when right at the limit think of yourself as an arrow, it gets shot from the bow going into a corner and you can't do much about its trajectory after that (again this is right at the limit where there is no traction left, you can go a bit wider, but tighter is impossible).

In any vehicle, it's always safest to go into situations slow and add speed as you become more comfortable. The worst situation you can be in is when you are too fast for your ability and force yourself to make a quick decision (which is often a bad decision when forced into it). The most common mistake is jamming on the brakes when you think you are going too fast for a corner, this will stand the bike up and minimize any chance you had of making it. As others have said, look where you want to go, don't make abrupt manoeuvres and use it as a lesson to go in slower the next time.
 
My experience on my cruisers has always been to NEVER use the front brake while turning, ONLY the rear if you have to slow down (ideally you shouldn't but it happens).
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