Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle? | Page 30 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

Tesla, more than any other manufacturer, has to prove that it is capable of building quality, durable vehicles.

The Tesla Model 3 may be more "stylish" but the Bolt is the body style that people are actually buying ... the CUV form factor (today's hatchback / wagon). The trunk opening in the Model 3 is like a mail slot. Doesn't matter how big the trunk is if you can't get anything into it.

The Tesla 3 will be using Tesla's first steel bodyshell. Have they applied the lessons other manufacturers have learned about rust protection? Unknown. And I don't like what I've seen of the interior.

And ... although Mr Musk could change this with a snap of his fingers ... I won't buy a Tesla until I can walk into a UAP/Napa or other independent shop and buy wheel bearings, brake pads, shock absorbers, tie-rod-ends, etc and until any body shop can get OEM sheet metal for it. GM? No problem. Tesla? Nope! Tesla service centers only.
 
Last edited:
Brian P said:
I won't buy a Tesla until I can walk into a UAP/Napa or other independent shop and buy wheel bearings, brake pads, shock absorbers, tie-rod-ends, etc and until any body shop can get OEM sheet metal for it. GM? No problem.
Click to expand...

Exactly - I actually verified this before buying the Volt, FWIW. All the common stuff that I'd fix myself at home (including pretty much all the above) were available readily at a variety of sources, not only just the dealer.

There are a grand total of 3 Tesla service locations in ALL OF Ontario, basically all clustered in Toronto - Oakville, Mississauga, and the western edge of Scarborough/Toronto Proper.

Ask someone who lives in Sudbury, Ottawa...heck, Kingston how they feel about having to drive (or worse yet, potentially tow) their Tesla hundreds if not thousands of Kilometers to get service.

I'm not anti Tesla, I think they are brining some much needed competition and innovation to the market, but I'm also super realistic about things - I want realiability, I want convenience, I want price. The Volt delivers on all three of those things.

A Tesla, at this point, none of the above - reliability being the big one - they are simply not faring well at all in that regard, so for someone (Sunny) who made countless replies crowing about the Volt and everything that can (but realistically doesn't, again, it's track record is now quite clear) go wrong with it (ranging from your perceived poor build quality to "surely the battery is going to need to be replaced" FUD), to suddenly wax poetic about Tesla is sending the irony meter off the charts.
 
Last edited:
Brian P said:
T

And ... although Mr Musk could change this with a snap of his fingers ... I won't buy a Tesla until I can walk into a UAP/Napa or other independent shop and buy wheel bearings, brake pads, shock absorbers, tie-rod-ends, etc and until any body shop can get OEM sheet metal for it. GM? No problem. Tesla? Nope! Tesla service centers only.
Click to expand...

Lots of companies use a "proprietary" approach to their business model. Apple is the biggest and well known offender of this method and it has turned out well for them, hasn't it? John Deere is another.

The odds are good with a "mass market" car like the Tesla 3 however, shrewd aftermarket car parts manufacturers will make common parts like rotors and brakes and other consumables. Not a big deal....
 
Well there you have it, Sunny said it's OK. I'm so relieved to hear it, aren't you?
 
SunnY S said:
Lots of companies use a "proprietary" approach to their business model. Apple is the biggest and well known offender of this method and it has turned out well for them, hasn't it? John Deere is another.

The odds are good with a "mass market" car like the Tesla 3 however, shrewd aftermarket car parts manufacturers will make common parts like rotors and brakes and other consumables. Not a big deal....
Click to expand...

It will be a big deal when Tesla drops your warranty claim stating you void the warranty using non Tesla parts.
I am pretty sure they are smart enough to work that into the fine print you are going to sign on the contract.

btw- last time I checked your iPhone doesn't leave you stranded on the side of the road.
 
fastar1 said:
Don't hold your breath.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...l-3-bet-rides-on-risky-assembly-line-strategy
Click to expand...

This is a gamble that could go either way. If all their computer simulation is correct, they win. If there is the slightest thing needing redesign, they lose.

For all the computer simulation available, you just can't simulate everything, it isn't practical. The trim panel that unexpectedly vibrates and transmits unpleasant noise into the cabin (seen that). The assembly fixture that takes an outer door skin that is within tolerance and mates it to an inner skin that is within tolerance, leading to an assembly that is out of tolerance because of the way you have to hang onto the parts (seen that). The MIG weld line that makes a part within specs for the first part off the line, but as the fixtures heat up, the deflection causes subsequent parts to deflect and warp, so the 10th and subsequent parts are out of spec (seen that - this was a bugger to get through). The real-world side-impact crash - not allowed to simulate those, you have to do the crash tests with a real vehicle! - that rips the bottom of the B pillar out of the floor pan and forces an extra brace to be added inside the B pillar (seen that - and this was a real bear, because the extra welds required extra robots and there wasn't enough space in the original line layout - so the B pillar stamping had to be sent off-line to an extra station to weld the brace in and then come back to the main line). On the other hand, the real world roof-crush test that revealed that a designed-in extra brace was not needed and could be eliminated to reduce weight and cost. And, the real-world driving test that revealed that a designed-in power steering cooler was not needed and could be eliminated to reduce weight and cost. That one worked out great for where I worked at the time ... we built the line, it was all ready to go and shipped (and invoiced!) before the part got cancelled. No warranty claims, no on-site commissioning headaches, and we got paid!

When reality meets theory, reality wins.
 
Brian P said:
This is a gamble that could go either way. If all their computer simulation is correct, they win. If there is the slightest thing needing redesign, they lose.

For all the computer simulation available, you just can't simulate everything, it isn't practical. The trim panel that unexpectedly vibrates and transmits unpleasant noise into the cabin (seen that). The assembly fixture that takes an outer door skin that is within tolerance and mates it to an inner skin that is within tolerance, leading to an assembly that is out of tolerance because of the way you have to hang onto the parts (seen that). The MIG weld line that makes a part within specs for the first part off the line, but as the fixtures heat up, the deflection causes subsequent parts to deflect and warp, so the 10th and subsequent parts are out of spec (seen that - this was a bugger to get through). The real-world side-impact crash - not allowed to simulate those, you have to do the crash tests with a real vehicle! - that rips the bottom of the B pillar out of the floor pan and forces an extra brace to be added inside the B pillar (seen that - and this was a real bear, because the extra welds required extra robots and there wasn't enough space in the original line layout - so the B pillar stamping had to be sent off-line to an extra station to weld the brace in and then come back to the main line). On the other hand, the real world roof-crush test that revealed that a designed-in extra brace was not needed and could be eliminated to reduce weight and cost. And, the real-world driving test that revealed that a designed-in power steering cooler was not needed and could be eliminated to reduce weight and cost. That one worked out great for where I worked at the time ... we built the line, it was all ready to go and shipped (and invoiced!) before the part got cancelled. No warranty claims, no on-site commissioning headaches, and we got paid!

When reality meets theory, reality wins.
Click to expand...
[Like button]
 
PrivatePilot said:
I'm not anti Tesla, I think they are brining some much needed competition and innovation to the market, but I'm also super realistic about things - I want realiability, I want convenience, I want price. The Volt delivers on all three of those things.

A Tesla, at this point, none of the above - reliability being the big one - they are simply not faring well at all in that regard, so for someone (Sunny) who made countless replies crowing about the Volt and everything that can (but realistically doesn't, again, it's track record is now quite clear) go wrong with it (ranging from your perceived poor build quality to "surely the battery is going to need to be replaced" FUD), to suddenly wax poetic about Tesla is sending the irony meter off the charts.
Click to expand...

Tesla isn't just bringing competition to the table, they actually recreated the table after the beloved GM burned it to the ground, and sold the battery patents that they had bought for the EV1 to an oil company(Texaco iirc?) in hopes that it would never again see the light of day, with every single other established manufacturer following their lead. The EV market likely wouldn't exist right now if not for Tesla, and the closest thing you'd get to a volt would likely have been a hybrid cruze with no plug in option. As for reliability, my cousin in Oshawa had to fight GM to buy back her lemon Volt. And my personal experience with all of my GMs in the past(majority of my vehicle history actually) has been that they engineer their vehicles to be disposable, and they've been doing it for some time now. I've even decided that once I dump my HHR, I will never own another GM vehicle unless it's a classic.

As for parts for self service, a smart buyer isn't going to the local partsource or canadian tire counter anyway, and in the extremely rare case that the owner of a currently available tesla wants to service their own car(remember that the current line-up starts over $130k, these buyers don't have dirty hands), a resourceful owner can find parts online. Musk is already preparing for the launch of an actual working man's Tesla, doubling the supercharger network, adding more service centers, etc. I'm quite sure that when they're ready to sell a car for the blue collar crowd, they will start to distribute brake pads to local parts stores. Not to mention it's probably smarter to lease rather than buy any of these new EVs anyway, that way you don't have to worry about the hassle of reselling a car with a perceptibly worn out battery, and it's out of your hair before the warranty runs out.
 
JTR said:
Tesla isn't just bringing competition to the table, they actually recreated the table after the beloved GM burned it to the ground
Click to expand...

Tesla has certainly reinvigorated the market, but I think you're giving it too much credit to say it "recreated" it.

The Prius for example predates the founding of Tesla by 6 years, & Honda (with the insight) by 4 years. Tesla didn't deliver their first car for quite a few years after being founded, either, so those numbers are actually even bigger.

Accordingly, cars with propulsion batteries (albeit small ones in the case of a Hybrid) were returning to the market and I think any reasonable person could see the the natural path there was to make the battery side bigger and the car less reliant on ICE.

Yes, I will credit Tesla with pushing the automakers to go full EV sooner than they might otherwise have, but in the simple "putting propulsion batteries in cars" aspect there were manufacturers doing it before Tesla even existed.

JTR said:
As for parts for self service, a smart buyer isn't going to the local partsource or canadian tire counter anyway, and in the extremely rare case that the owner of a currently available tesla wants to service their own car(remember that the current line-up starts over $130k, these buyers don't have dirty hands), a resourceful owner can find parts online. Musk is already preparing for the launch of an actual working man's Tesla
Click to expand...

Yes, the working mans Tesla. Great - unfortunately your argument falls apart when you reach that reality though - many people buying a $40K car (that will depreciate to half of that inside a few years) wants to be able to work on their own car. . Many more yet will not want to be locked into Tesla solely for routine maintenance, especially when an $8500.00 brake job horror story like this (click) might be the reality.

To build a "working mans car" only to be forced into a locked-in and off the chart expensive service and repair network (that is potentially thousands of kilometers away from where they live on top of that - do you really think someone in, say, Wawa, is going to buy a Tesla when they have to drive 900KM to reach a location for service?) is going to lead to a lot of griping when that reality hits for people who can actually afford the "working mans" Tesla.

If Ferrari or Lamborghini suddenly introduced a $35,000 car the exact same thing would happen - awesome price on the car, ridiculous and limited parts and service network.

Changing the price point so dramatically introduces you to a whole new market, absolutely, but you're going to need to keep up with those new realities or risk a lot of ****** off customers.

Anyhow...I know I can hit the road with my Volt without much worry as in reality you're never going to be far from a GM dealer, or heck...a regular old repair facility (mom and pop shop, or whatever) that can *still* get parts for you and effect a repair. Tesla, not so much. They need to address this before the model 3 or that reality is going to catch up to them right quick.
 
Last edited:
I'm definitely a Tesla fan, and hope they succeed, but I decided on the Bolt specifically because of two factors.

1. With a 373,000 unit waiting list and only a demonstrated production capacity of ~50,000 unit/yr, Tesla has a long way to go to fulfill those pre-orders. Their plant may ultimately have the capacity to build 500K units a year, but scaling up to that is going to be a massive challenge for a company that has big quality control issues producing a tenth of that number now. Also, I need a replacement for one my current cars in the next few months so waiting until the end of 2019 at a minimum for a model 3 is not an option.

2. Dealer network. Tesla is already facing major support and service issues because they don't have an extensive dealer and support network. If you need body repairs you could be waiting 6 months for the Tesla authorized facility to get to your car due to backlog. At least with GM, if I have an issue with a dealer there is most likely another one within a half hour drive.

If they were both available today, I just might have chosen the Model 3 over the Bolt since I tend to prefer a sedan style vehicle over the CUV and the Tesla certainly has a more sophisticated software suite. But it's not available, and unless you put money down last year it's not really going to be available for at least another year.
 
Last edited:
I'm currently looking at the Bolt, but I won't buy a first year model of anything. So, I will probably wait until next year, assuming my pos Mazda will get me through another winter. As much as I appreciate what Tesla has done for EV's, I can't see myself owning one. They have too many questions attached and I think they're pushing the tech side of automobiles too quickly. Parts and service with Tesla is a big concern. If something goes wrong, I need to be able to fix it for a reasonable price. As a motorcyclist I don't like that their autopilot under certain circumstances may not see motorcycles. I don't like the put it out quickly and add patches if needed business model for cars. This is not software for a laptop, it's for a heavy automobile traveling at high speeds! If I order one now, price unknown (big red flag in itself), I won't get it for at least a year and a half (best case scenario). Tesla hasn't demonstrated that they can scale up their production reliably. I expect major delays. I will give Tesla the style edge. I'd much prefer to be seen in the Model 3, than the Bolt, but at this point in my life that doesn't matter so much.

Cheers,

Wes
 
JTR said:
Tesla isn't just bringing competition to the table, they actually recreated the table after the beloved GM burned it to the ground, and sold the battery patents that they had bought for the EV1 to an oil company(Texaco iirc?) in hopes that it would never again see the light of day, with every single other established manufacturer following their lead. The EV market likely wouldn't exist right now if not for Tesla, and the closest thing you'd get to a volt would likely have been a hybrid cruze with no plug in option.
Click to expand...
The Volt started development since 2006, a time when Tesla's Roadster was two years from hitting road and the industry's take on Musk was that he's a shyster peddling vapourware. Even after the Roadster was produced it still wasn't viewed as a success worth worrying about, and even today Tesla's 'success' isn't anything a major manufacturer would strive to emulate as it rests on the support of investors rather than sales.

The Volt was GM's strategy to take their EV1 experience and leap-frog the Prius which was obviously a huge hit for Toyota and to this day people associate hybrids strictly with Toyota. Well they succeeded, notwithstanding SunnY's dogged insistence that old-fashioned hybrids are still best.

I love how Tesla has shaken up the industry, especially when it comes to dealerships, and I'd like to see them succeed. But their cars are unreliable crap by all objective standards. Your anecdotal experience doesn't change that.
 
Last edited:
Anyone check out the specs on the '17 e-Golf? 200km range , $29k out the door. No lease rates as of yet.
 
LBV said:
Good to see another EV on board soon with Lunatic. My boss is considering a Bolt and FYI there's an EV event that's been going on where you can test drive a Bolt, Leaf, i3, etc tonight 4-8 and then Sunday 11-6 just W of Finch & Alness (Dufferin) on the N side ... I'm planning on going tonight.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/electr...re-sneak-peek-open-houses-tickets-32858710287
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the link. That's right near my work. Unfortunately I can't make it tonight or Sunday, but I see that they will be open anytime after May 18. What a great service.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Tesla has certainly reinvigorated the market, but I think you're giving it too much credit to say it "recreated" it.

The Prius for example predates the founding of Tesla by 6 years, & Honda (with the insight) by 4 years. Tesla didn't deliver their first car for quite a few years after being founded, either, so those numbers are actually even bigger.

Accordingly, cars with propulsion batteries (albeit small ones in the case of a Hybrid) were returning to the market and I think any reasonable person could see the the natural path there was to make the battery side bigger and the car less reliant on ICE.

Yes, I will credit Tesla with pushing the automakers to go full EV sooner than they might otherwise have, but in the simple "putting propulsion batteries in cars" aspect there were manufacturers doing it before Tesla even existed.
Click to expand...

There are a couple things you're leaving out. Teslas were still the first fully electric vehicles that weren't hoarded and crushed by its own manufacturer. They never made combustion powered vehicle, not once. Yes yes, many companies have made hybrids, but you want to try and tell me that those same companies, ones whom experimented with EVs, and then subsequently burned and buried any evidence of those experiments, would have gone full electric on their own??? No, pure and simple no. Not only did they not have any interest whatsoever, but they fought it tooth and nail. They ONLY initially experimented with it before because of looming government regulation. As soon as the government threat was off the table, they spent many millions of dollars to hide it.

PrivatePilot said:
Yes, the working mans Tesla. Great - unfortunately your argument falls apart when you reach that reality though - many people buying a $40K car (that will depreciate to half of that inside a few years) wants to be able to work on their own car. . Many more yet will not want to be locked into Tesla solely for routine maintenance, especially when an $8500.00 brake job horror story like this (click) might be the reality.

To build a "working mans car" only to be forced into a locked-in and off the chart expensive service and repair network (that is potentially thousands of kilometers away from where they live on top of that - do you really think someone in, say, Wawa, is going to buy a Tesla when they have to drive 900KM to reach a location for service?) is going to lead to a lot of griping when that reality hits for people who can actually afford the "working mans" Tesla.

If Ferrari or Lamborghini suddenly introduced a $35,000 car the exact same thing would happen - awesome price on the car, ridiculous and limited parts and service network.

Changing the price point so dramatically introduces you to a whole new market, absolutely, but you're going to need to keep up with those new realities or risk a lot of ****** off customers.

Anyhow...I know I can hit the road with my Volt without much worry as in reality you're never going to be far from a GM dealer, or heck...a regular old repair facility (mom and pop shop, or whatever) that can *still* get parts for you and effect a repair. Tesla, not so much. They need to address this before the model 3 or that reality is going to catch up to them right quick.
Click to expand...
Once again, you're talking about an $8500 brake job on a $150-190k car, which is not uncommon. Its also not uncommon to not find a dealership for $150-190k cars in or around less affluent communities, so towing long distance is an expected expense and inconvenience. And the lack of currently available service centers and parts available for a car that wont be delivered to customers for what, another year? Come on. Hey, do you think Bolt parts were available last year? If Ferarri did make a $35k car hypothetically, do you not think that a dealer network would rise up almost immediately? And what makes you think that service costs on that $35k Ferarri would not be proportionate to the cars value? Think about it, you can't make a car for $35000 if the sum of it's parts are in to six figures.
 
Last edited:
JTR said:
Think about it, you can't make a car for $35000 if the sum of it's parts are in to six figures.
Click to expand...

The sum of the parts on any car is in the ballpark of six figures (obviously retail prices not cost). Each individual part isn't so bad, but by the time you have a bill for a few thousand parts, the sum is shocking.
 
I'm a fan of what Tesla did to the EV market. I'm a fan of Musk having the foresight to see that "it's about the charging network" and going ahead and building it. I'm not a fan of Tesla pushing "autopilot" prematurely to market. I'm not a fan of Elon Musk doggedly insisting on the Model X having too many widgets and gizmos that are proving troublesome. I generally like the Model 3 and I certainly like the concept of the Model 3. The instrument panel ... not so much. The glass roof ... not so much. The mail-slot trunk opening ... not so much.

The availability of parts through aftermarket channels, and availability of service procedures to independent mechanics, is something that they could change with the snap of a set of fingers. But it needs to happen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom