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Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?
- Thread starter PrivatePilot
- Start date
blackcamaro
Well-known member
I mentioned this a bunch of pages back, it has to be the single biggest reason why EV's aren't really on peoples radar. Until gas prices go right through the roof or a huge advancement is made in electric cars they will continue to be a niche vehicle with a small market. Direct fuel injection and small motors with forced induction is working out well. 6,7 and 8 speed transmission certainly help as well.
That and a lack of infrastructure. Charging stations are still very limited.
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slowbird
Well-known member
Very true. Though I can't afford a Biturbo Merc like Snob Mike...the purchase price I might squeeze but the insurance? Not a chance.
The other thing that I factored in when doing the math before buying the Volt was the savings besides just gas. The maintenance such as Brakes, Oil changes, and other miscellaneous costs that I have had on the regular with my previous cars will be much much much less often with the Volt.
Again...it all depends on the person. Some people don't drive enough for that to make a difference. Some people do their own maintenance and like it (still costs $$ though), though some cars (I have owned 1 or 2) have some high service costs. Like I said before...EV's like the Volt make sense to some and to others it's not the right fit.
slowbird
Well-known member
Hey PP,
Did you go through Onstar for your upgrade issues?
The reason why I'm asking is that when I first got the car and tried setting it up and noticed it wasn't working I called Onstar. They said they'd look into the issue blah blah.
Well today they called me and said my Volt needs the hardware upgrade (no surprise) so they had me register on the Onstar website and transferred me to the hardware people who said the parts and install will be free of charge. I had them confirm this a few times ("It's free right?" "Free means the same thing down there in the states like it means up here in Canada right?" etc etc)
So they are sending the parts to my nearest dealer and I'll get a call when they arrive to book an appointment.
Is it maybe cause my Volt is slightly newer that you will be charged for your hardware upgrade?
Did you go through Onstar for your upgrade issues?
The reason why I'm asking is that when I first got the car and tried setting it up and noticed it wasn't working I called Onstar. They said they'd look into the issue blah blah.
Well today they called me and said my Volt needs the hardware upgrade (no surprise) so they had me register on the Onstar website and transferred me to the hardware people who said the parts and install will be free of charge. I had them confirm this a few times ("It's free right?" "Free means the same thing down there in the states like it means up here in Canada right?" etc etc)
So they are sending the parts to my nearest dealer and I'll get a call when they arrive to book an appointment.
Is it maybe cause my Volt is slightly newer that you will be charged for your hardware upgrade?
Honda's new Clarity plug in is basically a gen1 Volt in almost every regard - there's actually some question if it's actually using the GM Voltec drivetrain since there is a GM/Honda partnership on the Voltec system. The fact it shares almost identical electric stats as Gen1 Volts has driven a lot of speculation.
That said, the G1 Volt has an excellent and now very well known track record of extreme reliability - I'd buy a gently used Gen1/2 Volt before buying a brand new first-generation Clarity - the Volts have a track record (and an 8 year 160,000KM drivetrain warranty), and the other contains a lot of unknowns about reliability that comes with any first model year of a new vehicle.
None of the ICE technological advancements will ever reach the efficiency (on a cost basis) of electricity. Going over 60KM (Lets call it an even 60) on electric last weekend cost us slightly under $1.00 in electricity - the equivalent of less than 1 liter of gas.
In short, there is no consumer based ICE vehicle on the face of the planet that can go 60K on about 0.8L of gasoline.
When you scale that up into Tesla / Bolt territory (many hundreds of kilometers of range) the savings multiply exponentially.
Your driveway is a charging station. A simple 15A plug at work, with permission, is a charging station. There's also a not insignificant number of public charging stations out there as well - most people are surprised how many actually. And when you don't have access to one...you use a bit of gas. Simple.
I still stand fast in my opinion that lack of public take up still has overwhelmingly to do with misconceptions, not lack of any infrastructure. In the 2-3 weeks we've owned the volt I've heard all the following:
- Can it do highway speeds or does it only do 60KPH max or something?
- Yeah, 60K electric range, great, you have a tow truck on speed dial?
- It'd never work for me I drive 200KM every weekend.
- The battery will need to be replaced in a year or so, bend over!
- Gas is cheaper than electricity.
Heck, quite a few of these misconceptions were part of this very thread. None are of any real concern.
Unfortunately until people learn the facts many won't even consider looking at an EV because of these preconceived falsities, however. The automakers as a whole need to get together to dispel these misconceptions to benefits all their EV sales figures moving forward.
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I don't blame you.
Honda Clarity plug in hybrid is rolling out in the US right now, not too long before it comes to canada.
Has comparable range to the Volt electric wise.
Charges to full in 2.5 hours on a level 2 charger. I'm pretty sure the Volt takes much longer.
the early reviews indicate that the build quality and quality of this interior reaches near luxury levels.
and Hey, its a Honda.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/honda-clarity-ev-plug-hybrid-debut-new-york/
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Interesting. What year is your Volt again? It's possible you still fall into some sort of newer model year benefit vs me?
The upgrade is most definitely not free for me - see the screeenshot of the OnStar website page I posted a page or two back - the website made it quite clear I'm in for $380+taxes.
When you login to the OnStar Canada website what does it show for you when you get to the "hardware update required" page? Can you please screenshot it and post it here for us to see?
Edit: I went back and re-read things - your 2014 does indeed fall into a model year with a 5 year service included with the car, so not only are you eligible for a free hardware upgrade, but you'll still have a few years of service active (for free) to go along with it. Enjoy.
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blackcamaro
Well-known member
It was a general statement not so much directed at that Mercedes example or other high end options. If you look across the board at fuel economy numbers between now and 10 years ago it really is impressive how manufacturers have made vehicles much more efficient without giving up any power or driveability, in a lot of cases the cars make more power and do it more efficiently.
Still I get why you chose to buy one. With the insurance rates etc you mentioned and wanting to make a change somewhere it makes perfect sense. I'm glad it's working out for you and in terms of plug ins the volt is probably the one to buy of whats currently available in the market. Enjoy it man.
It's far from a solution for everyone though (different reasons on a case by case) and it will take quite a bit of time to get there.
blackcamaro
Well-known member
Absolutely. What the advancements have done though is take away a NEED for electric vehicles. People are okay with the fuel they use at this point in time. Will that change? Sure, but that's a long way away. What does it tell you that manufacturers keep pouring more money into r&d of ICE powered vehicles? People will continue to buy what they WANT until they NEED to change.
If most of your driving is from home to work then yes charging at home and work will be fine. North America is a real big place though and for a lot of people the range isn't going to cut it for all of their uses of the family car, for them you need places out and about where you can charge and charge quickly. I think you mentioned a page or two back that there is 16,000 or so charging stations across North America, there's like 320 million people in the U.S. alone. 16,000 charging stations isn't even close to the amount you would need for electric to be a viable option as a mainstream vehicle. This will change, it'll take a long time though.
I'm also curious how the grid would handle another say 10-20 millions cars plugged in every night and through the day. Heck we get blackouts from time to time because of A/C use in the summer.
Once your out of a charge and using some gas you could say your driving a hybrid.
Some of those misconceptions are a fact though. For some people the range is a factor. You've said it yourself at a certain mileage mark a hybrid is a better choice. While it may not be every car or even the majority some batteries do take a crap. Those repairs can be pretty pricey. Are you also going to tell me people don't have modules fail or charging issues. With a limited amount produced and relative new tech these repairs are going to be expensive and you will be limited to where you can have the work done.
The automakers will continue to work on whatever it is that they can sell and make a handsome profit with. That currently IS NOT ev's. Don't believe me here is some sales figures from the U.S. last year
Total new vehicles sold- 17.5 million
Total ev sales - 159,000
For fun, total Ford F-series (F-150 to F-350, not sure if 450 and 550 count) 820,000
So I still stand by my statement that the manufacturers have done a good job at continually developing the internal combustion engine and it is the choice that people want. It will continue to be that way for some time.
You can choose to think that the only vehicle out there is worth buying is a Volt but A LOT of peoples opinion differs from that.
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Insult? Please do report it. Seriously.
Now, seems no one else, and more importantly, the person I replied to in both instances you decided to cite, had any noteworthy objection to what I had said. So what was your motivation? Want to talk more about attempts to drag this thread into something else? Are we trying to have a conversation on the culture of victimhood all of a sudden? Forced to defend yourself? Go on... lmfao
PS. I'm not a car buff, but a 15+ year vet of the repair trade, and rather experienced with repairing hybrids, including those being discussed .....gasp. Again, something the person I was actually addressing knows, and seemingly appreciates.
So now that I'm done defending myself (oh pity me pity me) put your shirt back on and check your bias. Ill let your egregious misidentification slide. Or do we need a tribunal? lol.
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A lot of people simply don't comprehend the potential savings, so they might be totally ****** at the amount of gas they're burning (when was the last time you saw some a the gas station happy to be pumping $60, $80, or $100+ in gas? Yeah, never....) but they just don't have the slightest clue about the fact that they could be burning from none whatsoever, to a fraction of what they currently are, instead.
One thing that I've discovered as an EV owner now is that you quickly become an unofficial spokesperson. The thing turns heads EVERYWHERE and I've lost track of the number of people who've peppered me with questions, be it family, co workers, or strangers in a parking lot as happened at Home Depot last weekend.
People have ZERO clue about the realities of EV's so they simply never consider them as an option. When peoples eyes are opened to the realities, suddenly a lot of people put them into very real contention all of a sudden. It's interesting to see people become enlightened.
One of my wifes co-workers commutes from Bowmanville to Peterborough every day as well and is now also considering buying an EV of some sort, having seen the very real savings we are now enjoying. There's no denying that the potential of 0.0L/100KM (or even a modest 2.6L/100KM as is our case) constitutes a very real and significant savings for many people who are currently operating cars/minivans burning in the 10-13L/100KM range.
And I've never said that the Volt was the be-all-end-all choice in EV's...it's just the one that I chose for the following reasons:
- In our driving scenarios (as has been proven with my real world numbers now) it was the most economical choice for us.
- I used to be a GM guy, and was willing to give GM a second chance based on the well documented Volt reliability and quality.
- I think the Prius is butt ugly. I know some people feel the same way about the Volt, but I like it. Appearance is subjective of course.
- Most of the hybrid options are dogs in comparison to pure EV options. The Volt trounces the Prius in performance, for example.
- I've never been an import buyer and am unlikely to ever own a Toyota.
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It should be cheaper and lighter to add AWD to electric cars than ICE cars. Especially if the secondary wheels have low power motors. Having 10hp motors on the secondary wheels is probably enough to keep you from getting stuck or use torque vectoring to aid handling. The price gap between EV's and conventional vehicles shrinks if they can give you AWD for not much additional money.
Honestly AWD only helps people a few days a year, but many many people (including some in my family) don't think they can live without it. If you want AWD EV now you are into the expensive Tesla's. If the Volt added AWD for $1000 (which should be easily possible with small intermittent duty motors) I doubt they'd sell many without the option.
Honestly AWD only helps people a few days a year, but many many people (including some in my family) don't think they can live without it. If you want AWD EV now you are into the expensive Tesla's. If the Volt added AWD for $1000 (which should be easily possible with small intermittent duty motors) I doubt they'd sell many without the option.
If this was a thread on new motorcycles I'd be convinced that PP is the Macdoc for EVs! Similar to scooters seems like the Volt is the end all be all.
While I agree it's a great car I still think it's a small part of the population that will want one even after they recognize all the benefits. People need a shove to change their ways and even a discussion I had a few days ago people think electricity is more expensive than gas!
I will personally consider one as one as my next car. Current office is 30km away, with no charge station. But now I commute on the GO and only drive a couple days/week. Home office is 8km away WITH charge stations which would effectively make my commute $0 for gas, especially if I fill up on Friday and only do quick bursts on weekends!
also, as per the issues with your cars that you guys bought....were they from Chevy dealers or others? Do you feel these would be better handled by an actual Chev dealer?
While I agree it's a great car I still think it's a small part of the population that will want one even after they recognize all the benefits. People need a shove to change their ways and even a discussion I had a few days ago people think electricity is more expensive than gas!
I will personally consider one as one as my next car. Current office is 30km away, with no charge station. But now I commute on the GO and only drive a couple days/week. Home office is 8km away WITH charge stations which would effectively make my commute $0 for gas, especially if I fill up on Friday and only do quick bursts on weekends!
also, as per the issues with your cars that you guys bought....were they from Chevy dealers or others? Do you feel these would be better handled by an actual Chev dealer?
People think they need everything under the sun now, AWD included. Personally, unless you're trekking well outside of any urban area IMHO it's a complete waste.
My Magnum is AWD. Wouldn't have been my choice, but that's the way I bought it.
Yes, it was great in the snow this past winter. No, I didn't need snow tires this winter as a result as the car would drive through heavy snow like nobody's business, although I do totally understand I would have been safer with them (stopping power, etc) regardless - that's another story.
Problem is....fuel economy penalty. A big one. All...friggin....year. For those 3 or 4 decent snowfalls where the AWD was nice, you get kicked in the balls for the entire rest of the year as a result.
In short, 99% of the population living in the GTA (or any major city) has no real need for AWD nor 4WD unless you spend your weekends in the north, but that doesn't stop people from feeling they'll never make it from their driveway to Starbucks alive without it. That's marketing for you.
On the EV topic, AWD would probably suffer a much smaller margin of loss if done on a direct wheel-motor setup as you suggest, but there would still be some parasitic loss no matter what, and EV range loss is not ideal when it's being caused by a system that in reality (again, IMHO) you really don't need anyways.
My Magnum is AWD. Wouldn't have been my choice, but that's the way I bought it.
Yes, it was great in the snow this past winter. No, I didn't need snow tires this winter as a result as the car would drive through heavy snow like nobody's business, although I do totally understand I would have been safer with them (stopping power, etc) regardless - that's another story.
Problem is....fuel economy penalty. A big one. All...friggin....year. For those 3 or 4 decent snowfalls where the AWD was nice, you get kicked in the balls for the entire rest of the year as a result.
In short, 99% of the population living in the GTA (or any major city) has no real need for AWD nor 4WD unless you spend your weekends in the north, but that doesn't stop people from feeling they'll never make it from their driveway to Starbucks alive without it. That's marketing for you.
On the EV topic, AWD would probably suffer a much smaller margin of loss if done on a direct wheel-motor setup as you suggest, but there would still be some parasitic loss no matter what, and EV range loss is not ideal when it's being caused by a system that in reality (again, IMHO) you really don't need anyways.
Yes but AWD is marketed everywhere you go. I don't see a need for it if you got good winter tires but the marketing machine is strong.
makes you wonder if the marketing was there on EV would they surge in popularity?
Would the repairs be better handled by a GM dealer you mean?
I think when it comes to any EV or Hybrid there is a limit to what a non-dealer facility can accomplish. Run of the mill things that are the same as any other car (tires, ball joints, brakes, tie rod ends, oil changes etc etc) can be fixed by any shop, but when it gets to the more complicated drivetrain bits in any EV/Hybrid,there is a line where the dealership may be the best place to go.
This was a negative for me personally as I've never been a fan of dealership service - it's typically overpriced and not always any better than what you might get at a reputable private shop, but I do accept the fact that there could be scenarios (and again, this goes for ANY manufacturers EV/Hybrid options, so don't single out the Volt here) where a dealer visit may be a wiser choice.
There's also the training thing to keep in mind. A mom and pop shop might spend 4 or 5 hours (at $90/hour) chasing a hybrid/EV drivetrain issue) that a trained dealer tech might catch in 1 hour at $120/hour.
-D-
Banned
This statement is misleading and people forget that the Volt can still run like a normal gas powered car therefore why do ppl make is seem as if you will get stranded on a longer drive.
"If most of your driving is from home to work then yes charging at home and work will be fine. North America is a real big place though and for a lot of people the range isn't going to cut it for all of their uses of the family car, for them you need places out and about where you can charge and charge quickly."
"If most of your driving is from home to work then yes charging at home and work will be fine. North America is a real big place though and for a lot of people the range isn't going to cut it for all of their uses of the family car, for them you need places out and about where you can charge and charge quickly."
That could change any day though, if some next gen battery tech comes along that brings the EV price premium down closer to the price of ICE. There are always promising new battery techs being tried (and failing) but it only takes one to succeed to turn the advantage of ICEs on its head.
I don't think it's range or recharge time or charging stations that are the obstacles to widespread adoption, but price that's the barrier to entry, even with the substantial incentives available and the cheap energy cost. There's no obvious net economic advantage for most people right now, assuming they even had the budget to afford a hybridized vehicle to begin with.
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We have access to much of the same training as the dealers, at most 2 years out from the release of the latest tech. At my shop there is nothing I can't do that the dealer can outside of recalls. This includes diagnoses, software upgrades etc. The tools are available to those who wish to be on top of things.
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