-D-
Banned
and the earth is flat?
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Mike Pence
- Thread starter nobbie48
- Start date
and the earth is flat?
Snobike Mike
Banned
-D- said:
Nope!
This might help, but I doubt it....
In the end no Christian follows the bible to the letter. Instead they personally pick and choose what to believe in, or they let their individual sect do so and they just obey what they hear and apply cognitive dissonance to what they do not like. This does not make this particular religion special BTW.
The bible is clear on how you are supposed to cut your hair, do they follow that or do they choose not to? The bible is clear women must cover their heads in church, does one's mother, wife, daughter... or do they choose not to? Tattoos, expressly forbidden, how many have tattoos? Working and shopping on the Sabbath? Theft, expressly forbidden in the 10 commandments (now we are talking big rules here) yet how many Christians do illegal downloads, or use kodi--all theft. I can go on for a very long time, hopefully you get the point (ever the optimist I am).
Now that was the personal level. Some sects of Christianity expressly allow LGBTQ, and even have ministers that are. Yet others choose to not allow them and in fact choose to try and keep rights away from them. Again a choice (picking and choosing what parts of the bible suit them). In the end I doubt anyone follows it to the letter (even the pope), instead they follow what fits for them and ignore what they do not like (cognitive dissonance). In the end the word of god himself, its son, its profits and its disciples are ignored by my guess everyone when these words do not suit them.
Now someone who is LGBTQ has not made a choice, it is who they are--if you are religious it is the way god himself made them. Yet people like Mike Pence and the like have made a choice to be bigoted against them--and it is a choice. They use the bible as an excuse, but as noted above ignore the words of god himself, its son, its profits and its disciples when it does not suit him, I can tell by looking at his hair and what his wife wears to church. If he followed the entire bible to the letter, then I give him a pass, otherwise... it is a choice to be a bigot.
When it comes to the baker, if they refused to serve a Muslim, Jewish, Black, Asian, White etc. person because of his beliefs, would that be OK with you? Or are some OK and other are not?
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Snobike Mike
Banned
You have raised a myriad of issues, I'll attempt to comment on a few.
It should be noted that you seem to be making the LGBTQ issue solely a Christian issue, it is not. You can make arguments regarding the LGBTQ crowd (and more specifically their agenda) without having to reference the Bible.
On the Bible itself, to be as respectful as possible, you have some considerable misunderstandings of what the Bible teaches. And by stating that Christians fail to follow the Bible, either wholly or in part, doesn't prove that the Bible is faulty. It simply proves that Christians can and are errant, just like everybody else.
In terms of a private business being able to choose who they serve, yes, it's their business. Furthermore, in the case of the Bakery, it was clearly vicious and vindictive of the LGBTQ crowd to attack that specific and particular bakery based on their beliefs, which they did (how tolerant eh?). There were other bakeries in town that would have happily served them, but no, they needed to punish this bakery (and they most certainly were punished) to make an example out of them. (yet again how tolerant of them eh?).
As Jordan Peterson so avidly points out, if your identity is not truthful, why should I support it? Why does that make me a bigot? The LGBT crowd does need help, just not the help they are asking for (or forcing onto the rest of us.....yet again how tolerant of them....).
Please reread my first paragraph, I noted that this does not make Christianity special, maybe I need to spell it out more clearly? it is not the only religion with these issues. BUT last I looked Mike Pence "excuse" for his bigotry is his Christianity, hence the focus.
Yes, Mike Pence is errant. Obviously he does not follow his own religion, agreed on that point. In fact anyone who is a bigot is errant when it comes to the bible. Something about all men are created equal.
I do hope though that you free your slaves if they lose an eye when you beat them, like the bible says.
So back to my question, are you saying it is OK (and you think it is OK) to discriminate against Muslim, Jewish, Black, Asian, White etc?
Now I would be more OK with it if they had to have a sign in the window stating that they are bigots, maybe a swastika or confederate flag. That way all shoppers will know who they are and can choose how to spend their money accordingly. Blacks, Jews, etc. can also avoid them, it would solve a lot of problems.
Well yes people who claim to follow a religion yet pick and choose what parts to follow are not truthful to their identity. Of course, people who live their lives as they are born are truthful to their identity (and were created equal according to the bible). It looks like you got this one a little mixed up, but you are slowly getting there.
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Snobike Mike
Banned
A private business should be able to choose whom they serve. In the specific case of the bakery, the LGBTQ crowd deliberately targeted the bakery when there were other options available, and they targeted specifically to make an example out of them. It was wilful deliberate harm to the bakery (cost them $150K in fines and I believe they even went out of business). There was no harm done to the LGBT crew, they had other bakeries in the same town. It was the vicious, vindictive, intolerant LGBTQ crew that caused the harm. As usual, the left pretends to want to protect everybody and have equality, but the truth is they are the ones creating inequality and harm to certain targeted groups.
You again mis-quote the Bible and/or provide "evidence" for your position out of context.
And as pointed out so clearly by Jordan Peterson, creating identities that aren't based on truth, are not identities, and in fact do harm to the person attempting to hold such a facade.
reputable citation required
I would argue that a private business should be able to choose WHAT they serve.
A Jewish deli could refuse to sell to a person of a different race, gender etc a ham sandwich because they don't keep pork products on their premises. If the customer switches his order to corned beef he must be served.
A men's wear shop won't sell a bra to a woman simply because they don't sell bras.
A fundamental Christian baker should have the right to refuse to put a same sex couple decoration on a wedding cake only because they don't stock same sex wedding decorations. It gets touchy when the bakery is able to do something but won't.
If the bakery is able to write "Best Wedding Wishes Joan and Fred" but refuses to write "John and Fred" it becomes a gay rights vs religious rights conflict.
There are many other examples of church vs state.
A polygamist religion in a monogamist country.
Christians being forced to work on Sundays.
Jews being forced to work after sundown Friday to Saturday sundown
Religion, cultures, customs and laws are different entities that are difficult to balance to everyone's satisfaction.
Also the vendor can't force people to buy things they don't want. A bacon on a bun cart probably won't do well in a predominantly Jewish or Muslim neighbourhood.
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Bigotry is not a uniquely Christian thing, but as far as I know no gay baker has ever refused to bake a heterosexual cake... or a Christmas/Easter cake. If they do they are by definition bigots.
Things would be a lot simpler if bigots had post a warning in their windows saying they are bigots, then people could avoid them appropriately. Of course they will not because they want their cake and eat it too... they want to be bigots but they don't want anyone to know because it will put them out of business.
Things would be a lot simpler if bigots had post a warning in their windows saying they are bigots, then people could avoid them appropriately. Of course they will not because they want their cake and eat it too... they want to be bigots but they don't want anyone to know because it will put them out of business.
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Wouldn't refusing to bake a cake "because gay" be letting everyone know you're a bigot? Maybe pre-madonna gay couple had said refusal coming based on personality? Nobody ever asks that question... Does being gay automatically make you Fab?
*disclaimer* I don't know anything about gay cake nor have I read this thread.. carry on.
OMG.... Read.
So... Get back to us when he goes in front of a congressional committee or FBI investigators and claims he never used a private server. In case you forget, it was the blatant lies and deletion of 30000+ documents that proceeded the lock her up mantra.... geez
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Lets flesh that out.
You think a parking lot operator should be allowed to refuse a spot to someone because they're, say, a woman. And a gun shop should be allowed to sell weapons only to, say, Christians. And someone can rightfully be refused admittance to a college due to being black. And a trans person can be refused a lease because... trans, amirite!
So you're OK with allowing people's hate to overflow into action and cause people harm. Why? What's the upside of turning a blind eye to that kind of unfair and unethical treatment of people?
The rest of society has already decided the downside isn't tolerable. If we want to be able to claim that we live in a just society it has to be just for all, not only those who may be in power at any given place or time.
That's such an astounding take on reality. Good thing you called it "the truth" or I might be tempted to disagree. But you're right, the left is targeting hateful organizations that cause harm to others and treating them unequally from those organizations who treat everyone fairly, thank God. (I'm sure he'd agree).
This is the way society has decided to deal with haters:
1- That's their right
2- They're idiots
3- We won't sit back and watch if they cause harm
4- They'll go berserk, and we'll sit back and watch that instead
@fastar
As I'm baking this cake, can I openly question the rational of genderqueer masculine of center? Bet I can question the kid who comes in with 40 piercings in his face without worry.
Anyway, not really a free society if youre not free to decide who you do business with... right or wrong.
As I'm baking this cake, can I openly question the rational of genderqueer masculine of center? Bet I can question the kid who comes in with 40 piercings in his face without worry.
Anyway, not really a free society if youre not free to decide who you do business with... right or wrong.
You can refuse to deal with a person if their language offends you but not if their gender alignment offends you. I'm not sure if you can ask a person to leave your premises if their odour, based on their food spices and therefore culture, offends you.
At one time the word "Darn" raised the eyebrows of TV censors but now the F and S words that are banned on this site are not all that rare on the tube. Norms change, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
You are right in saying you're not free to choose with whom you do business and the unfairness is that the buyer is less punished for discrimination than a seller. A baker is punished for not baking a gay cake but how do you punish a gay person for not shopping at a straight shop?
Many races including WASPs prefer to deal with people and businesses of their own kind. Isn't that discrimination?
Try taking that to court if you're white.
Good read.
A snippet: "Lies require collaboration from those who are being lied to, and for a propaganda machine to be effective it needs a special kind of public ignorance."
Welcome to 2017 and the world of the gullible.
Hear in Hamilton there was a well known pot head hippie who led a 'church' and he would often represent his followers in court. He wore a rainbow beanie which he declared 'religious wear' and therefore was not subject to removal. Score one for the white guy, but I doubt many would raise an eyebrow to him being asked to leave local black tie steak house. I struggle with the duplicity of it all, is all.
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