Conflicting laws | GTAMotorcycle.com

Conflicting laws

nobbie48

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Apparently in Hamilton and likely in other cities you can have security cameras around your house but the field of view can't go beyond your own property. It makes sense because people generally want privacy in their back yards etc.

However a dash-cam can video anywhere. Obviously the views of backyards will be limited but front yards are pretty much as open as the streets.

What restrictions are there on ATM cameras?

Much would depend on the difference between taking a picture and full time monitoring. I can envision a pile of paperwork defining the difference.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5158178-when-personal-security-clashes-with-privacy/

Basically, when does a dash cam become a security camera?
 
It would be interesting IF anyone were to be charged under this bylaw, as with most bylaws they are often unconstitutional, but no one fights them due to the costs associated with doing so. Municipalities often pass bylaws which are in direct conflict with provincial or federal laws.

Unless they have a warrant, you an simply request that a bylaw enforcement officer leave your property and you are under no obligation to provide them with identification. This is not commonly known, which is why people will surrender their id, if they are stopped for say not stooping and scooping after their pets. If stopped by a bylaw officer for this you can simply walk away, without providing ID, therefore, they can't issue you a ticket, (unless of course you climb into your car and they have the police run the plate for them). Bylaw enforcement have no access to MTO databases, but as a courtesy most police officers will when requested run a plate for them.

Now if you specifically point your security camera so it has a clear view of say your neighbor's bedrooms, or those of their kids, the there would be other sections of the Criminal Code that come into play.

As for dash cams, there was actually a request just this week for people in the area of a shooting here in Toronto by TPS for anyone, they specifically stated such as businesses with security cameras or people with dash cams to check their footage in the event something was caught which could assist TPS with their investigation. Now many dash cams are setup so they they are recording while the vehicle is shut off to prevent draining the battery
 
Photographing or filming people in a public location is allowed. So having your security cameras covering to the sidewalk or road can't be a no-no. As said already, private property is another matter.
 
There are also laws which govern the use of security cameras, etc. You may for example in a retail setting use a security camera to "monitor" for illegal activity, as long as the camera records video ONLY it is not permissible for the device to record audio, Unless there are signs specifically stating that the area is recording BOTH audio and video. The cameras at my shop have the ability set as default to record video only, I have chosen to leave it set as such.

Seeing I had extra cameras with the system, the property manager asked if I could mount one to monitor the trash bins. I said I would as long as they paid for and mounted signs advising the area was under video surveillance. They did, which was a bonus for me as I can now also monitor my and clients parking areas..lol
 
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It would be interesting IF anyone were to be charged under this bylaw, as with most bylaws they are often unconstitutional, but no one fights them due to the costs associated with doing so. Municipalities often pass bylaws which are in direct conflict with provincial or federal laws.

A biker clubhouse located at Park and Perry streets has fallen under the scrutiny of city bylaw officials. Jul 26, 2012
http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer....-violated-city-bylaw-against-fortifying-homes
City police and members of the OPP’s Biker Enforcement Unit were at the house Sunday night after a member of the Loners motorcycle club was assaulted near the rail tracks on Park St. early that morning.
Police said the search was related to the assault. So far, no one has been arrested.

Officers on scene ripped down several security cameras mounted outside the house.
City police Staff Sgt. Larry Charmley said the cameras may be violating a bylaw designed to prevent people from fortifying their homes.
Residents are allowed to have video cameras on their property. It’s a common feature, and selling point, of many home security systems.
Homeowners aren’t breaking any laws by having those cameras, Charmley said, if they’re pointed inside or at the perimeter of the property.
Problems and infractions arise when cameras are pointed out at the street, he said, beyond the property’s perimeter.
It’s also a problem for police, he said, because anyone watching the monitor could be preparing to ambush any officers trying to get in.
Then there’s the white, wooden fence surrounding the property.
Its height may pose a problem for motorists heading east on Perry St., or north on Park St., he said, if the fence’s height impedes visibility.
Police also had to grapple with a thick chain keeping a chain link fence shut.
The chain alone isn’t illegal, he said. But the bylaw also prohibits anything that could slow down emergency services from getting onto the property, or slow down anyone trying to leave.
That part of the bylaw doesn’t exist for police alone.
City solicitor Patricia Lester pointed out that if someone was having a heart attack on a fortified property it becomes a problem for the paramedics or firefighters trying to reach that person.
Lester said the city has heard the police concerns regarding the house at Park and Perry streets, and are taking a look at the evidence.
The homeowner is working with the property standards department on the fence issue, she said.
Overwhelmingly the city prefers to deal with infractions by issuing compliance orders to property owners, Lester said, giving the owner a chance to fix the problem.
“Typically, with any municipal bylaw, we seek enforcement through compliance,” Lester said.
If a person doesn’t comply the city does have the option of going onto the property and doing the needed work, Lester said.
The bylaw does not give the city permission to enter a dwelling.
Each infraction is handled on a case-by-case basis, Lester said, and depends on a number of variables like the infraction in question, and the willingness of the property owner to work with the city.
“All we want is compliance,” she said.
Police haven’t charged anyone in relation to Sunday morning’s assault.
Charmley acknowledged that getting people to talk has been difficult, but not unexpected.
“They’d rather just deal with it among themselves,” he said.
NOTE: The same bylaw also prohibits residents from building observation towers, installing electric fencing, land mines, hidden traps, weapons triggered to go off when someone steps on the property or “laser eyes,” devices that sound an alarm when an adjacent property is entered.
sarah.deeth@sunmedia.ca
 
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http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2110486-bikers-new-east-end-digs-will-get-bylaw-investigation/

The city is investigating whether members of the Hamilton Hells Angels, newly settled in an east-end clubhouse, are too secure for their own good.
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Manager of building inspections John Lane said Monday afternoon the city is in the “preliminary stages” of an investigation to determine if the converted tavern at the corner of Beach Road and Gage Avenue runs afoul of Hamilton’s new “fortifications” bylaw.

“We can’t say much about (the investigation) now, other than we’ll be working with the owner and tenants of the building to ensure it’s not excessively fortified,” he said.

The so-called bylaw is meant to stop homeowners from installing security infrastructure heavy enough to keep fire, police and paramedics at bay during an emergency.

The bylaw was passed on the heels of a massive, late-2009 police raid on the former Hell Angels clubhouse at 269 Lottridge St., a bunker of a building featuring remote-controlled surveillance cameras, concrete pillars, barbed-wire fencing and bricked-up windows. Police got in by blowing a hole in the side of the building with explosives.

The city’s investigation is “proactive,” according to Lane, based on “public reaction” to the conversion of the former Gage Tavern into a hangout for the notorious biker club, as well as details gleaned from media reports.

The investigation probably won’t take club members by surprise.

In an interview last week, Hells Angels member James “Bubbs” Sherwood said he expected a visit from city officials sooner or later.

He figured the fortifications bylaw “won’t affect us at all.”

“We haven’t done anything to this building,” said Sherwood, who said the blocked-up windows and security cameras were in place before the motorcycle club began renting the old bar.

“All we’ve done is put up a gate.”

There are actually two new gates blocking access to the property at 105 Beach Rd., both topped with three strings of barbed wire.

Sherwood said the property’s security measures fit the neighbourhood, pointing out nearby businesses with barred windows and fences.

The bylaw, available on the city’s website, specifically rules out security measures such as bulletproof glass, steel-plated doors and extra concrete or masonry designed to seal doorways and windows.

Steel bars are OK on basement windows, but not on the first floor or higher. Security cameras can’t be pointed at public property. Barbed wire doesn’t rate a specific reference.

Lane noted the investigation may find nothing amiss.

But if there are problems, he said the owner of the property — not the tenants — will ultimately be responsible for finding a fix.

Sherwood said last week the club was renting the building from an “acquaintance,” but declined to identify his landlord.

Land registry documents list Gregory Tilley as the latest owner of the storied tavern.

The city’s building services division isn’t alone in scrutinizing 105 Beach Rd.

City spokesperson Debbie Spence said late Monday municipal bylaw enforcement officials are also starting a “proactive” inspection of the property based on zoning and property standards issues.

Sergeant Terri-Lynn Collings said in an interview last week that Hamilton police have received “no specific complaints” about the Hells Angels clubhouse.

“But we’re aware of their presence and we’re monitoring the address closely,” she said. “We’ll be watching to ensure no laws are broken, and that would include bylaws.”

mvandongen@thespec.com
 
One of the things that always upsets me about traffic tickets is that the officer generally has a choice of which offence to apply.
If you make an illegal left turn in a signed intersection, you are guilty of either disobey official sign under the HTA.
OR a violation of the city bylaw which makes it illegal to make such a turn.
The HTA carries points and possibly higher insurance while the bylaw infraction does not.
Most police officers don't even know they have a choice.
 
I've installed cameras for a living, and have CCTV installed monitoring the outside of my house - I also have dashcams in both of our cars.

The bylaw (in Hamilton) is ambiguous and is obviously enforced on a complaint basis - aside from the fact that a bylaw officer would require a tremendous amount of cooperation from an everyday citizen to actually apply any penalties (unlike a criminal organization premises following a raid where the Police have already entered the premises and are aware of whether the cameras are real and what they are specifically looking at etc).

This bylaw is about fortification - dashcams, ATM cameras, GoPros, drones etc etc are outside the scope of that context. I'm not sure that the CCTV part of the bylaw would stand any sort of serious challenge in court, but it makes for additional fuel added to the pile of stuff being thrown at a criminal organization.
 
Having a large property in south Scarborough, had some security concerns so had a system installed with 8 outdoor cameras covering all doors and all the property. The front camera's view extend out past the edge of the property onto the road. That is how the system was set-up, so I am assuming the installers knew what they were doing.
As for part of meester jamie's post,
NOTE: The same bylaw also prohibits residents from building observation towers, installing electric fencing, land mines, hidden traps, weapons triggered to go off when someone steps on the property or “laser eyes,” devices that sound an alarm when an adjacent property is entered.
Would one of these be considered a weapon?? I have a serious raccoon problem and have 3 set-up on the property.

http://www.havahart.com/resources/spray-away-infrared-motion-activated-sprinkler-repellent/images/0
 
Having a large property in south Scarborough, had some security concerns so had a system installed with 8 outdoor cameras covering all doors and all the property. The front camera's view extend out past the edge of the property onto the road. That is how the system was set-up, so I am assuming the installers knew what they were doing.
As for part of meester jamie's post,
NOTE: The same bylaw also prohibits residents from building observation towers, installing electric fencing, land mines, hidden traps, weapons triggered to go off when someone steps on the property or “laser eyes,” devices that sound an alarm when an adjacent property is entered.
Would one of these be considered a weapon?? I have a serious raccoon problem and have 3 set-up on the property.

http://www.havahart.com/resources/spray-away-infrared-motion-activated-sprinkler-repellent/images/0

No form of booby trap, mine or electrocution device can distinguish between a real threat and a first responder, wandering child or dog. Barbed wire and spike rails are usually a no-no as well.

The motion activated sprays interest me because we too have raccoon issue. If they only spray water I can't see the harm, especially if on a timer when they only go off at night.
 
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Having a large property in south Scarborough, had some security concerns so had a system installed with 8 outdoor cameras covering all doors and all the property. The front camera's view extend out past the edge of the property onto the road. That is how the system was set-up, so I am assuming the installers knew what they were doing.
As for part of meester jamie's post,
NOTE: The same bylaw also prohibits residents from building observation towers, installing electric fencing, land mines, hidden traps, weapons triggered to go off when someone steps on the property or “laser eyes,” devices that sound an alarm when an adjacent property is entered.
Would one of these be considered a weapon?? I have a serious raccoon problem and have 3 set-up on the property.

http://www.havahart.com/resources/spray-away-infrared-motion-activated-sprinkler-repellent/images/0
How much did that cost, if you don't mind sharing?
 
Having a large property in south Scarborough, had some security concerns so had a system installed with 8 outdoor cameras covering all doors and all the property. The front camera's view extend out past the edge of the property onto the road. That is how the system was set-up, so I am assuming the installers knew what they were doing.
As for part of meester jamie's post,
NOTE: The same bylaw also prohibits residents from building observation towers, installing electric fencing, land mines, hidden traps, weapons triggered to go off when someone steps on the property or “laser eyes,” devices that sound an alarm when an adjacent property is entered.
Would one of these be considered a weapon?? I have a serious raccoon problem and have 3 set-up on the property.

http://www.havahart.com/resources/spray-away-infrared-motion-activated-sprinkler-repellent/images/0

There is no need for a bylaw to cover the majority of those extras as "laying in wait" is already covered under the Criminal Code of Canada.
 
Oh ya, electric fencing, farmers use that all the time. Are they exempt
to protect, secure livestock??
 
Oh ya, electric fencing, farmers use that all the time. Are they exempt
to protect, secure livestock??

I said the majority; not all. That makes picking and choosing an invalid argument. There are other regulations to cover things like electric fencing.
 
Not trying to pick a fight Rob, just wondering when and where electric fencing might be used. Farmers use it for livestock, can I use it in Scarborough for my dog?
 
Not trying to pick a fight Rob, just wondering when and where electric fencing might be used. Farmers use it for livestock, can I use it in Scarborough for my dog?

Invisible fences I assume are buried wires that send a signal to a collar worn by a pet which then gets a zap to keep them in the yard. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Getting raccoons, felons, stray cats and dogs to wear the collars will be difficult.
 
Invisible fence(buried sensor line) is different from electric fence.
Electrified fencing(think 10 foot tall mesh)
ANTI%20INTRUDER%20FENCE2.jpg

is different from the livestock fence(single line about 2 feet off the ground).
1917889_a604b461.jpg
 
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I know about invisible fencing, I was taking about the electric fencing they use on farms. Wires mounted on a post sticking about 12" to 18" up from the ground.
 
I know about invisible fencing, I was taking about the electric fencing they use on farms. Wires mounted on a post sticking about 12" to 18" up from the ground.

You would have to check your local bylaws, as to the type of fencing permitted. I highly doubt livestock electric fencing is permissible in Scarborough. Although they are generally LOW voltage, (some even use one of those square batteries), there is still a HUGE liability issue. If some toddler were to grab hold of your electrified fencing I can imagine the parents immediately contacting the authorities, (that is if dad doesn't beat some sense into you first). Or a dog pissing gets zapped, (again retribution may be swift from the ****** off owner).

Lastly, these farm livestock fencing are as you stated generally a single wire strung along, (generally not going to be an effective way to secure your own pet), You know dogs crawl and jump right, not so much for a 1,100 lb steer...lol.
 

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