Road Tolls coming to Toronto | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Road Tolls coming to Toronto

BTW these new revenues WILL NOT pay for everything the city needs to pay for. We are still in severe budgetary shortfall for the coming years and there's no more room to fiddle with the numbers to make things look alright.

There will be more tax increases after this.
 
Self-driving cars should be an answer, when they can communicate among each other and navigate lane restrictions and merging fluidly etc etc. But probably 10-20 years off from having the majority of cars with that capability. And you'll only see that benefit when you have a majority...

Until then, maybe Toronto traffic will just suck. Fun fun fun
AV actually exacerbate the problem if work/living hubs aren't decentralized as Kri$han said. Any time you make movement easier, it leads to more sprawl. More sprawl equals more traffic, unless people also move their jobs away along with their homes.
 
I hate that the media is playing a BIG role in this by politicizing the whole thing.

Tory was (and probably still is) against tolling existing roads; BUT ***** has officially hit the fan, and (obviously) he sees no other way to increase revenue for the city and get people moving in and out of the city efficiently.

It's too late to make more transit: not that the trains and rails themselves are too costly, but *implementing* any sort of effective transit system is too costly because there is no SPACE for stuff to get built. That's why they chose to re-vamp and re-***** streetcars. Useless, slow-AF streetcars.

This is not about Tory or any agenda he has; this is about the city, and ANY other politician from ANY party or not who would be in his place would come to the same conclusions.

The only real, long-term solution will be for offices and businesses who employ people in the 905 to move out of the 416 and setup shop closer to the 'burbs, where most of their workforce comes from. Sadly, that will take decades.

And he just found out that transportation in his city sucks and will suck for years to come with or without a toll he will implement ??? You ask any ordinary Joe, and they will tell you it has been bad for a good decade ... it's just getting consistently worse ... duh.

What I am trying to say is, you sound like you are willing to give him a break for something he obviously omitted to disclose during his campaign. Many people will not, because he cannot hide behind ... "traffic **** just hit the fan after I arrived to the office ..." ... this would be more expected from RF type of a guy.
 
There will be more tax increases after this.

Hmmm ... is this the worst kept GTA's secret that Toronto's properties have been undertaxed for a looong time? Oh, add the free libraries, swimming pools etc.
 
TO has chronically undertaxed property. This big shortfall is unsustainable. The smart thing is to revamp the property tax system in TO. Instead people are being suckered into thinking that a new tax is the answer, this one a road toll tax.

Wrong. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. New taxes have never satisfied government spending. In the end the existing taxes go up AND you end up with a new tax as well. People get what they deserve if they don't hold politicians accountable or they vote in politicians who add new tax after new tax after new tax.

The TO public transit system is in bad shape obviously, but that is mostly because of the disaster of provincial and federal government neglect (as it is the more senior levels of government that have historically led large infrastructure spending). Serious neglect. The provincial government has the most responsibility for this and should wear it the most as well. But hey, people voted in a current provincial party for multiple terms that maxed out the debt on many other "priorities", lol. People have literally rewarded the liberals for their spending patterns which also significantly ignored public transit.

Combine that with the fact that politicians now often bait and switch even big platform promises without any voter accountability (as mentioned), and we see the result... a sdfg show of terrible decisions and indifference.

TO residents and voters need to hold the provincial and federal government responsible on the large infrastructure public transit issues and vote accordingly. Much of that money needs to come from the province and feds. It can't be taxed solely or majority-wise with municipal instruments. I see these local politicians often misleading voters by telling people or inferring that TO needs new taxes to fund most or all major public transit infrastructure projects (which are billions). It sounds badly needed when they use the overall costs, but in reality TO only needs to pay their portion, often a third or less. Straw man arguments which do a disservice to residents. Sad. As well, you sometimes see politicians play games between each other in the local, provincial and federal funding of infrastructure. Hold them all accountable for their role in what transpires or transpired.
 
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Apathy will be the biggest factor to approval. If too many people react, City Councillors will read the writing on the wall.

Motorcycles aren't exempt from 407 tolls, so I seriously doubt they would be exempt from Gardiner/DVP tolls. I would expect they would use the same system, maybe even contract out management/collection to them.

Not exempt, but certainly a reduced rate would be a far easier sell for us. Isn't 407 a provincial responsibility and this toll business municipal?

I'm all for going up in arms to try to push this thing back but... framing this as a choice between property rates in toronto going up where toronto is the sole bearer of infrastructure costs OR road tolls where everyone (including those coming from outside the city) share the burden. Which is more palatable for the city?
 
I'm all for going up in arms to try to push this thing back but... framing this as a choice between property rates in toronto going up where toronto is the sole bearer of infrastructure costs OR road tolls where everyone (including those coming from outside the city) share the burden. Which is more palatable for the city?

I find it's a false equivalency to frame this as a choice between property tax rates or road tolls. As mentioned before by a couple of us, property taxes will have to go up sometime. The question is do you want a new road toll tax on top of higher property taxes as well.

The concept about local versus suburbs paying for infrastructure is another misleading straw man argument. Some provincial and federal taxes from outside the city should/will be flowing to TO to pay for big infrastructure funding, and typically as much or more than what the city will have to come up with.
 
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The only real, long-term solution will be for offices and businesses who employ people in the 905 to move out of the 416 and setup shop closer to the 'burbs, where most of their workforce comes from. Sadly, that will take decades.

Seriously??? People will live where they want and can afford. People will work where they find a job where they want/can/need. To expect 416 people to only work in 416 & each region of 905 to do the same is an unrealistic fantasy.

The best way to improve the situation is to break down the transit bureaucratic silos and worry more about tax funding operations and less about capital improvements . MetroLinks was supposed to do that, but became another level of bureaucracy instead. If GO & UP Express operated within the City as an integrated direct transfer system with no fare increase, you could transfer to GO at Leslie Station (Leslie & Sheppard) and be downtown in 1 stop, acting as an effective Yonge relief line. Transfer to GO or UP Express at Dundas W and be downtown in 2 stops, relieving the Bloor lane and avoiding the need for a west downtown relief line. Transfer to GO at Main Station (Danforth & Main St) and be downtown in 1 stop, relieving the Danforth line and avoiding the need for the east relief line. And this is just the beginning of the efficiencies that could be found in an integrated transit system.

All this infrastructure is already in place. Capital improvements would only be needed to make good GO/TTC connections at these stations, to add rolling stock and to electrify GO and twinning of the Richmond Hill GO tracks as least as far as Sheppard. But none of this is as sexy as announcing the construction of a whole new line, but could probably be done for less than the cost of the 1-stop Scarborough subway (which will actually reduce service as its replacing the Scarborough RT). The Feds would need to wrestle rights away from CN (who barely use them within the City anyway and got them for free from the Gov't back in the 1800's). The rest of the monies set aside for capital funding could be invested and allocated out as annual operations funding.

Right now if you commute twice a day, 5 days a week using tokens or Presto, you need to do 9 extra rides per month to break even on the cost of a MetroPass. If MetroPasses were subsidized to cost less than the cost of regular commuting, they would be in the hands of way more riders, who would then also use the system more in off-peak hours.

So why hasn't this happened? Because each separate agency does its own long range planning and talk to each other much less than they should. Because each silo wants to protect its own interest and cost/revenue sharing, and this kind of system would be extremely complicated to manage from separate budgets. And because every elected official has a brilliant new way of promoting themselves by fixing transit and Council keeps flipping back and forth.

Rant Over ... I just get pi$$ed off hearing about more taxes/tolls to fund inefficient improvements that end up doing more damage than good when it could be handled in a much better manner. If only we could break the back of the intransigent bureaucratic structure of our transit organizations.
 
I find it's a red herring to frame this as a choice between property tax rates or road tolls. As mentioned before by a couple of us, property taxes will have to go up sometime. The question is do you want a new road toll tax on top of it as well.

Of course not. In a sense we're kind of making the same point. Toronto is in a serious budget shortfall and property taxes have been recently raised. Introducing tolls would be the "easiest sell" for a politician. It's why I think this will not fade away. We've been slowly fed this idea over a few years now.
 
Of course not. In a sense we're kind of making the same point. Toronto is in a serious budget shortfall and property taxes have been recently raised. Introducing tolls would be the "easiest sell" for a politician. It's why I think this will not fade away. We've been slowly fed this idea over a few years now.

Tolls shouldn't be the easiest sell to people, but I'd say you are right as imo most people just don't think it through. The historical ON and TO resident voting record demonstrates such. Property taxes may have been raised, but they are still way too low and unsustainable. Either raise them significantly or significantly cut back services. TO has been a contradiction of big social engineering core services (separate from public transit as noted earlier) at a tax rate of small government. There is no having your cake and eating it too.
 
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Seriously??? People will live where they want and can afford. People will work where they find a job where they want/can/need. To expect 416 people to only work in 416 & each region of 905 to do the same is an unrealistic fantasy.

Yes, people can and should live/work where they want. The problem is we don't actually have the choice to live near work or work near where we live because of zoning conventions that tie swaths of land to single-use limits (called Euclidian zoning) and it's been a complete disaster from a city-building perspective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-use_zoning

If you want the low down on this planning practice and how it's all rooted in racism (not even kidding), this is a depressing article that explains it well: http://urbankchoze.blogspot.ca/2014/04/euclidian-zoning.html Then read his next blog post if you want to know how zoning is supposed to be done well.
 
Yes, people can and should live/work where they want. The problem is we don't actually have the choice to live near work or work near where we live because of zoning conventions that tie swaths of land to single-use limits (called Euclidian zoning) and it's been a complete disaster from a city-building perspective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-use_zoning

If you want the low down on this planning practice and how it's all rooted in racism (not even kidding), this is a depressing article that explains it well: http://urbankchoze.blogspot.ca/2014/04/euclidian-zoning.html Then read his next blog post if you want to know how zoning is supposed to be done well.

Meh. Misleading. Single use zoning is not done on the scale that you (or that link) imply. It isn't hard to live close to work. It's easy to see resident options near work areas everywhere. I bet 95% of people could live within a 10 minute drive or public transit of where they work if they wanted to. The problem is most people don't want to because they want to pay less, have more, own property, won't compromise on where they work with two people in a household employed, or have more a obtuse reason (proximity to family, friends, certain recreation, want a certain lifestyle, etc). Single use zoning does not at all mean that one cannot live close to work.

Zoning has merits and its place. While single-use zoning is often implemented, don't confuse it with zoning areas and plans that provide a combination of local mixed uses. Land zoning may be prescribed (e.g., single use, multi-use), but it can and has been changed as well. Planning hasn't been inflexible. More fulsome reading here.
http://plannersweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2001/10/257.pdf
http://www.placemakers.com/2013/04/04/mixed-up-on-mixed-use/
 
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Yes, people can and should live/work where they want. The problem is we don't actually have the choice to live near work or work near where we live because of zoning conventions that tie swaths of land to single-use limits (called Euclidian zoning) and it's been a complete disaster from a city-building perspective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-use_zoning

If you want the low down on this planning practice and how it's all rooted in racism (not even kidding), this is a depressing article that explains it well: http://urbankchoze.blogspot.ca/2014/04/euclidian-zoning.html Then read his next blog post if you want to know how zoning is supposed to be done well.

The City studied a section of underutilized commercial property along Danforth Ave in 2007 and up-zoned the lands to allow mixed use mid-rise development in early 2008. They even passed an Official Plan Amendment and zoning by-law so the lands could be redeveloped as-of-right.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2008.SC12.25

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2008/law0103.pdf

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/bylaws/2008/law0104.pdf

Guess how much of this has been built. None, nadda, zero, ziltch! Because the market interest and economic benefit weren't there to interest anyone into taking the financial risk to by and build.

I had a client who owns one of the key parcels in this study area. He was interested in redeveloping, but when we actually designed a workable building to meet the density the City allowed, part of it needed to be taller than the City allowed. Staff were intransigent and the numbers didn't make it worth the fight. So it remains a commercial strip plaza and a long-term investment for my client.

I've worked as an urban planner for 30 years, half in the public sector and half in private, including some time as a developer with my own money invested. Planning theory is an easy target to blame, but things only get built if there's a market interest in the product and someone who is willing to take the risk to build it. Sprawl happened because people wanted it, and because the car and cheap land created the opportunity for it to happen. But unlike many American cities, enough people in Toronto wanted an urban living experience, so we have a vibrant city with both.

So if you want to give me the lowdown on urban planning and racism, buy me a beer or 2 and tell me all about it. I'm sure it will be most entertaining!
 
First and foremost these tolls will line pockets. Lots of pockets. Whatever infrastructure projects are ultimately undertaken, they cannot be brought to fruition by regular humans. Only the best of the best can manage these complex undertakings. You want the best? Be prepared to pay large. This is why street meat vendors are indistinguishable from high school janitors in appearance and intellect. No pun intended.
 

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