Downshifting, uncertain which gear I am in

Downshifting gracefully is as simple as following the advice above. I almost always go down 1 gear at a time except for 2 situations:

- Rolled into a town while still in top gear with the engine running very low RPM (V-twin torque will allow that) but then come up on a hill or something that needs more power, then I might dunk it down 2-3 gears at once, but it's still easy to keep a mental note of roughly what gear you're in at that point since you started in the top hole, so yeah...count backwards.

- Had to make a rapid stop, IE traffic light just changed or whatever. In that case, ideally, try to accomplish the downshift from potentially top gear back to 1/N while you're still moving at least a little (transmissions on bikes hate shifting while not moving at all), or if stopping was the priority and there was no opportunity to complete the downshifts before you had your feet down...you can eventually accomplish a complete top-to-1 downshift while stopped if need be. Sometimes slipping the clutch a little between gears will help.

I think your issue comes from the training at the riders training courses - I know they engrain the "bang bang bang" your foot on the shifter method of downshifting in those courses - my wife did the same thing when she came fresh out of it as well, but that was only a method to be used during rapid stops. It's now time to put that behind you and add some gracefullness to downshifting and toss the "bang bang bang" method out the window - it was just for learning to ingrain the "you must get back to first gear while slowing down" thing into your head during the course..

Just be careful to make sure you're matching your gear to your speed properly otherwise dumping the clutch in too low a gear can easily cause the rear to break traction..and bad things can happen.

Jenerator said:

The only time I downshift through more than one gear is if I need to slow way down unexpectedly. It happens, unfortunately. You're not on a racetrack, so why would you do this as normal practice on the street? One at a time under normal riding conditions.

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Edit: I misread the "as normal practice" bit lol

I've had times where I've been on the highway cruising along in 6th and all of a sudden traffic stops abruptly and had to jump down to second or third.. I get what op is saying..

OP I don't know about your bike but mine has a different feel when I shift into each gear and a very distinct click when I shift down into first, see if you can notice the same on your bike. I can tell which gear I'm in by the feel of my shifter, I've never had a bike with a gear indicator before

I only worry about shifting down into first though

mudmojo said:

here's food for thought.

If you rip off downshifts leaving you in the meat of the powerband with some headroom to slow down even further then ... It won't matter which gear # you're in because you'll always be in the best gear for maximum acceleration, maximum fun and maximum safety.

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wut?

A couple of points, and I think they've been touched on or included with other information already:

1) In most cases, it doesn't matter what gear you're in. If you recently took a rider training course, the instructors probably talked a lot about the power band. You need to be in the right gear for the situation. If the bike is screaming, shift up. If the bike is lugging, shift down. The only time it really matters is when you're moving off and you want to ensure you're in first. So once you stop, let the clutch out to the friction point - make sure it feels like it's first an not a higher gear. Tap down again if you need to.

2) As for doing a full downshift into each gear as you come to a stop - there are clearly differing opinions on that right in this thread. Is it necessary? No. Will it help you slow down? Sure - less braking. I'd rather replace brake pads than wear out engine and transmission parts. It's also depends on how rapidly you're slowing down and how fast you were going. I rode very similar bikes (CBR600 F2, F3, F4) for over 15 years. Normal downshifting was through every gear until I pulled in the clutch in 2nd, tapped into first as I came to a stop. My new bike slows so dramatically when I roll off that I get the same effect with fewer downshifts, and I'm routinely double or triple tapping at the end because I've already slowed so much only going down to 3rd or 4th.

Aside from the braking assist (again, an issue always under debate), the primary reason for downshifting is to ensure you're in the right gear for what comes next. Think of downshifting prior to a turn/curve, so that you're in the powerband for the execution and acceleration out of that turn. Downshifting while stopping ensures that you're in the right gear if for whatever reason, circumstances change (like the light turning green).

ZX600 said:

wut?

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"meat of powerband with some headroom to slow down further" I can see where a reversal of physical dynamics would/could/should put somebody clean into a guardrail. I think there's a video around somewhere of that exact thing happening. Good eye!

People tend to overthink this...if you are accelerating and are in the red/close to it, shift up, and if you are decelerating, and the bike is getting to the lower point in the powerband or about to stall, shift down. Doesn't really matter what gear you are in, just if you need to go up or down. Only time I really check is when I am coming up to a light to confirm i am in 1st and not still in 2nd.

That said, skip shifting can be bad for you and bad for the vehicle. Less bad on a sequential transmission like a bike than a car's gearbox (where the syncros are only designed to go between gears, not skip them), but you still run the risk of guessing wrong, and either not having enough power to accelerate should you need to (eg. bad driver about to cause an accident), or end up going past the rev limiter on a downshift, wrecking your powertrain and probably throwing you off the bike.

Emefef said:

A couple of points, and I think they've been touched on or included with other information already:

1) In most cases, it doesn't matter what gear you're in. If you recently took a rider training course, the instructors probably talked a lot about the power band. You need to be in the right gear for the situation. If the bike is screaming, shift up. If the bike is lugging, shift down. The only time it really matters is when you're moving off and you want to ensure you're in first. So once you stop, let the clutch out to the friction point - make sure it feels like it's first an not a higher gear. Tap down again if you need to.

2) As for doing a full downshift into each gear as you come to a stop - there are clearly differing opinions on that right in this thread. Is it necessary? No. Will it help you slow down? Sure - less braking. I'd rather replace brake pads than wear out engine and transmission parts. It's also depends on how rapidly you're slowing down and how fast you were going. I rode very similar bikes (CBR600 F2, F3, F4) for over 15 years. Normal downshifting was through every gear until I pulled in the clutch in 2nd, tapped into first as I came to a stop. My new bike slows so dramatically when I roll off that I get the same effect with fewer downshifts, and I'm routinely double or triple tapping at the end because I've already slowed so much only going down to 3rd or 4th.

Aside from the braking assist (again, an issue always under debate), the primary reason for downshifting is to ensure you're in the right gear for what comes next. Think of downshifting prior to a turn/curve, so that you're in the powerband for the execution and acceleration out of that turn. Downshifting while stopping ensures that you're in the right gear if for whatever reason, circumstances change (like the light turning green).

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+1. Also let me guess the new bike is the CBR650F? Love the bike, but noticed too how quickly she spins down when you remove the throttle. I still tend to go through every gear, but typically find myself quickly dropping them (eg. downshift through 3 gears in about 3-5 seconds), and typically am still in 2nd on approach to a red, only dropping it in first and clutching in when I am about 10ft or less from stopping, since she'll pull fine at 20km/h in 2nd.

conundrum said:

That said, skip shifting can be bad for you and bad for the vehicle. Less bad on a sequential transmission like a bike than a car's gearbox (where the syncros are only designed to go between gears, not skip them), but you still run the risk of guessing wrong, and either not having enough power to accelerate should you need to (eg. bad driver about to cause an accident), or end up going past the rev limiter on a downshift, wrecking your powertrain and probably throwing you off the bike.

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I'm hopeful that in any of the comments about tapping through more than one gear, it was most often meant in the context of coming to a stop and not actually downshifting. That's certainly what I meant.
When we teach in a parking lot, riders practice a full downshift into first gear. The only times I would go down into first gear would be coming to a stop or almost stop, then moving away again, or when slowing to a walking pace (faster moving traffic slows to a walking pace.) Coming to a stop from traffic speed? Downshift a couple of times so I'm in a the proper gear during the slowing process. My bike has plenty of torque from low speed even in third gear, so there's no real reason to worry about any more downshifts - I'm almost stopped by then. Often I'm stopping in second or third, tapping the shifter a couple of times at or just before the stop so that I'm in first at the stop.

Emefef said:

1) In most cases, it doesn't matter what gear you're in. If you recently took a rider training course, the instructors probably talked a lot about the power band. You need to be in the right gear for the situation. If the bike is screaming, shift up. If the bike is lugging, shift down. The only time it really matters is when you're moving off and you want to ensure you're in first. .

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Again with this?

How is a new rider supposed to know what is the right power band is if they have no idea of the gear they are in?
Scenario = a new rider is in 5th and he has no clue, going approximately 120km/hr (ninja 250) if he needs to slow down to let's say 60 and pulls the clutch in and starts downshifting, how is he going to have a reference of "what the right powerband is" if he has no clue what gear he is on?

The way to know this is because you know that at 60km/hr your "right" powerband is in 3rd gear since the last time you were at 60km/hr you were in 3rd and now have that in your brain as a point of reference. Having a key piece of information missing like what gear you are on will make this task just a guessing game with the possibility of rear wheel lock if you don't have a slipper clutch.

Or are you suggesting to guess a gear and then as you release the clutch let's see what happens? Until a new rider has the experience and knows his/her bike well enough to do this guessing game, they NEED to know what gear they are in or are going into at all times.

If someone is up shifting then sure not so important what gear you are on, but downshifting what you are proposing is dangerous, hopeyou don't teach that in your classes.

Classic GTAM BS

How new is this rider? To be on the road they should have at least a basic understanding that you don't just throw down a bunch of gears and release the clutch lever. They should be past that. Go down one gear, who cares what the number associated with that gear is. Just go down one dammit and see how the engine feels. Feels good? Proceed. No good? Go down one more 'til you find the sweet spot. No real math needed.

If he is asking these types of questions, he is obviously brand new. That is my assumption anyways.

inreb said:

How new is this rider? To be on the road they should have at least a basic understanding that you don't just throw down a bunch of gears and release the clutch lever. They should be past that. Go down one gear, who cares what the number associated with that gear is. Just go down one dammit and see how the engine feels. Feels good? Proceed. No good? Go down one more 'til you find the sweet spot. No real math needed.

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The first post is chock-a-block full of personal data.

Exactly

I read this as rider not in control and in a rush to stop therefore not enough time to downshift properly or being lazy.
Go practice and it will become 2nd nature.

When you learn to use your gears properly UP and DOWN, it will help you avoid issues.
For all those types that just brake and don't know what gear they are in etc...

wet roads = higher than normal gear, keeps wheel from spinning
emergency stopping/slowing on wet/dry road downshift properly because you can lock up the brake...use the engine braking ability along with actual brakes to better slow your roll (humor).

Why not use the rear wheel to slow you as well as keep the rear wheel on the road...instead of only using the front brake to do all your stopping?

It hurt my brain so I got a scooter that auto shifts. Problemo Solvo!

inreb said:

How new is this rider? To be on the road they should have at least a basic understanding that you don't just throw down a bunch of gears and release the clutch lever. They should be past that. Go down one gear, who cares what the number associated with that gear is. Just go down one dammit and see how the engine feels. Feels good? Proceed. No good? Go down one more 'til you find the sweet spot. No real math needed.

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Sweet spots and powerbands are so 1970's.

Today's average broseph will understand better when using terminology such as yut-ugh and vtech just kicked in.

ZX600 said:

How is a new rider supposed to know what is the right power band is if they have no idea of the gear they are in?
Scenario = a new rider is in 5th and he has no clue, going approximately 120km/hr (ninja 250) if he needs to slow down to let's say 60 and pulls the clutch in and starts downshifting, how is he going to have a reference of "what the right powerband is" if he has no clue what gear he is on?

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inreb said:

How new is this rider? To be on the road they should have at least a basic understanding that you don't just throw down a bunch of gears and release the clutch lever. They should be past that. Go down one gear, who cares what the number associated with that gear is. Just go down one dammit and see how the engine feels. Feels good? Proceed. No good? Go down one more 'til you find the sweet spot. No real math needed.

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Maybe it is because I've been using manuals for so long it's second nature, but it doesn't take long to figure out what RPM an engine starts to lug at, and what RPM it stops making much more power at. Even with a new rider on a new bike, all you really need to do is like inreb said...start braking (either engine, normal, or combination of both), and when the engine starts sounding 'unhappy' and will soon start to lug, drop it down a gear. When you let the clutch out it is still about to lug soon? Drop it one more. Repeat until stopped (and then kick down into first) or until bike is in first.

ZX600 said:

Again with this?

How is a new rider supposed to know what is the right power band is if they have no idea of the gear they are in?
Scenario = a new rider is in 5th and he has no clue, going approximately 120km/hr (ninja 250) if he needs to slow down to let's say 60 and pulls the clutch in and starts downshifting, how is he going to have a reference of "what the right powerband is" if he has no clue what gear he is on?

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The guidance came with the caveat that they had learned and practiced at a course, didn't it? That the powerband had been explained.
In the OP's question, he's asked about not knowing what gear he is in when downshifting. In your scenario, you say a new rider is in 5th at 120kmh and has no clue. That's not the scenario. Secondly, I never suggested multiple taps for a downshift, and even clarified that in a subsequent post. I even explained the reason for downshifting is to ENSURE you're in the right gear - which is why sequential downshifting is important. The tapping down is ONLY if you are stopping and dont' intend to release the clutch again.

ZX600 said:

Again with this?

The way to know this is because you know that at 60km/hr your "right" powerband is in 3rd gear since the last time you were at 60km/hr you were in 3rd and now have that in your brain as a point of reference. Having a key piece of information missing like what gear you are on will make this task just a guessing game with the possibility of rear wheel lock if you don't have a slipper clutch.

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I know it's not what you mean, but it oversimplifies it by implying there is only one right gear for any given speed and that you MUST base you decision on the indicated speed, rather than what the engine is doing. Students are taught, without speedometers, to listen and more importantly feel, what the engine is doing when determining shift points. Later, on their own bikes, the speedometer is additional reference information.

ZX600 said:

Or are you suggesting to guess a gear and then as you release the clutch let's see what happens? Until a new rider has the experience and knows his/her bike well enough to do this guessing game, they NEED to know what gear they are in or are going into at all times.

If someone is up shifting then sure not so important what gear you are on, but downshifting what you are proposing is dangerous, hopeyou don't teach that in your classes.

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No, they don't - they need to know that the gear that they are in (or if the clutch it disengaged -ABOUT to be in) is appropriate the number doesn't matter - what matters if anything, in determining if it's the right gear, is the direction from the last gear.

ZX600 said:

Or are you suggesting to guess a gear and then as you release the clutch let's see what happens? Until a new rider has the experience and knows his/her bike well enough to do this guessing game, they NEED to know what gear they are in or are going into at all times.

If someone is up shifting then sure not so important what gear you are on, but downshifting what you are proposing is dangerous, hopeyou don't teach that in your classes.

Classic GTAM BS

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I didn't suggest that at all, and the "classic GTAM BS" is more an indication of how quickly you decided to refute, rather than consider, what I wrote. If your reponse is based on the fact that you though I was advocated multiple downward taps before releasing the clutch, I get it. We're past that now.
If this is a simple disagreement about whether a rider needs to know the gear number at all times, then it's just that - a disagreement.
If it was that important, more bikes would come with indicators.
More training courses would teach people to count, instead of listening and feeling.

I can't tell you how often people are certain they're in the right gear and can't figure out why the bike is lugging or screaming. What's important is not what gear they're in, or think they're in, but what the engine is doing and what they want it to be doing.

I think we had a misunderstanding. No ******** intended.

Jayv said:

Sweet spots and powerbands are so 1970's.

Today's average broseph will understand better when using terminology such as yut-ugh and vtech just kicked in.

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V-Tech just kicked in, YO. The millennials need that YO just like some people need gear indicators. Practice makes perfect, OP. Try to make a mental note of your gear each time you shift. It helps. Older engines will tend to judder and protest if your gear selection is too high or low for the conditions. It's not that hard, or millions of riders wouldn't have mastered it. Same thing with driving stick. Anyone tells you otherwise, they're just trying to puff themselves up. #inrebrules

ZX600 said:

Exactly

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So if we removed H pattern from top of his car shifter knob we would find parallel thread in car forum under help I don't know wut gears ise in? The main thrust is not knowing wut gear it's in. No number required.

Emefef said:

I didn't suggest that at all, and the "classic GTAM BS" is more an indication of how quickly you decided to refute, rather than consider, what I wrote. If your reponse is based on the fact that you though I was advocated multiple downward taps before releasing the clutch, I get it. We're past that now.

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Your response was indicating that knowing which gear you are in doesn't matter inmost cases, relating that to the OP question and his described way to do multiple downward taps, it is implied that this is ok and also ok not knowing the gear you are on, you then in a subsequent post clarified that was no the case but I can't read post in the future so I responded accordingly. and the fact you felt the need to clarify shows that you realized it could be interpreted that way.

The GTAM BS is my judgement on people sounding like they know what they are talking about and providing the wrong information, which in this case you were, until you clarified yourself in a later post.

I am glad however that you clarified as new riders do take what we say in here seriously and we need to be careful on what we say or it can put new guys/girls in danger.

Not biggy