Bikes with ABS for new riders | GTAMotorcycle.com

Bikes with ABS for new riders

mistersouthpaw

mistersouthpaw

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Just out of curiosity do you guys think new riders should start with ABS or without ABS?

I have a friend who learned on a bike with ABS, then bought one without and locked the front..

Apologies if this has been discussed before
 
mistersouthpaw said:
I have a friend who learned on a bike with ABS, then bought one without and locked the front..
Click to expand...

IMHO, there's your answer right there. Learning to ride without crutches to begin with would seem prudent, and add the crutches after the fact.

It's like people that learn to drive modern cars with all the electronic crutches - ABS, traction control, stability control, lane departure warning systems, automatic headlights, etc. Put them in a car with none of those crutches and put them in an emergency situation and next thing you know the first time they have to make an evasive maneuver in an emergency they're sideways and sliding into a ditch because all the electronics didn't come to the rescue. In other words, they never actually learned the skills they should have learned to be an effective driver to begin with.

Here's a good example I saw a few days ago. The first time the guy is relying on all the electronic crutches, the second pass he switches them off and does a full numpty into the ditch while still blindly holding the gas pedal to the floor. Fast car, lots of money...NO skills.

[video=youtube;quE3pKJGTQQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quE3pKJGTQQ[/video]
 
mistersouthpaw said:
Just out of curiosity do you guys think new riders should start with ABS or without ABS?

I have a friend who learned on a bike with ABS, then bought one without and locked the front..

Apologies if this has been discussed before
Click to expand...
It has been debated over and over again. If you don't want to lock the front like your friend, get ABS. If you don't mind doing it, don't get it.

80% of the people will recommend you get ABS as a beginner.
 
ABS and TCS are two different animals. Also I still don't get why people seem to think ABS will somehow turn on 'God Mode' and allow them to be idiots behind the wheel or bars.

If you 100% rely on ABS and just grab 100% brake all the time, you will not learn and that sort of riding/driving will probably kill you in the end.

If you only use ABS as a final safety net, then you should never see/use/need/feel it, but if for some reason you do (eg. getting cut off at the last second), it could very likely be what saves you or keeps you from losing the front and crashing.

Personally, I like having that final safety net, and it has probably come in handy on the bike and in the car 2-3 times since I started driving over 15 years ago. I also liken ABS to my riding gear...I wear a jacket and pants not because I plan on going down or ever using them...but if I ever do need them in a slide, I'll be damn glad they are there. Same as a seatbelt in a car or airbags for that matter.

Also ABS imo can HELP new riders learn better if they use it properly....go to a parking lot, and keep braking progressively harder until you think the wheels will lock. If you go slightly beyond the point, back off a little and now you know your threshold point for those road conditions. Better to learn that way than to do it without ABS and if you accidentally go beyond the threshold point potentially dumping the bike while practicing.

Anyhow just my 2 cents...figure there will be at least 10 militant "bike should not come with ABS, we shouldn't have to wear helmets, and cars shouldn't have seatbelts because it promotes crashing" comments that show up below.
 
There are a shitzillion of videos on YT of people locking up a wheel and binning their bikes, some of them expensive. Maybe that will influence your decision
 
I'm a new rider, and after the emergency braking practice on the MSF course I'm very happy I bought a bike with ABS. Statistics say something like 27% less fatalities on ABS equipped bikes. I've had it kick in on the rear tire but not the front yet.
 
Supernam said:
It has been debated over and over again. If you don't want to lock the front like your friend, get ABS. If you don't mind doing it, don't get it.

80% of the people will recommend you get ABS as a beginner.
Click to expand...

no no im not worried about myself, I dont have abs on my bike. Just new to the forum and wanted to see what your guys' opinions on that were
 
PrivatePilot said:
IMHO, there's your answer right there. Learning to ride without crutches to begin with would seem prudent, and add the crutches after the fact.

It's like people that learn to drive modern cars with all the electronic crutches - ABS, traction control, stability control, lane departure warning systems, automatic headlights, etc. Put them in a car with none of those crutches and put them in an emergency situation and next thing you know the first time they have to make an evasive maneuver in an emergency they're sideways and sliding into a ditch because all the electronics didn't come to the rescue. In other words, they never actually learned the skills they should have learned to be an effective driver to begin with.

Here's a good example I saw a few days ago. The first time the guy is relying on all the electronic crutches, the second pass he switches them off and does a full numpty into the ditch while still blindly holding the gas pedal to the floor. Fast car, lots of money...NO skills.

[video=youtube;quE3pKJGTQQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quE3pKJGTQQ[/video]
Click to expand...


very well put.
 
conundrum said:
ABS and TCS are two different animals. Also I still don't get why people seem to think ABS will somehow turn on 'God Mode' and allow them to be idiots behind the wheel or bars.

If you 100% rely on ABS and just grab 100% brake all the time, you will not learn and that sort of riding/driving will probably kill you in the end.

If you only use ABS as a final safety net, then you should never see/use/need/feel it, but if for some reason you do (eg. getting cut off at the last second), it could very likely be what saves you or keeps you from losing the front and crashing.

Personally, I like having that final safety net, and it has probably come in handy on the bike and in the car 2-3 times since I started driving over 15 years ago. I also liken ABS to my riding gear...I wear a jacket and pants not because I plan on going down or ever using them...but if I ever do need them in a slide, I'll be damn glad they are there. Same as a seatbelt in a car or airbags for that matter.

Also ABS imo can HELP new riders learn better if they use it properly....go to a parking lot, and keep braking progressively harder until you think the wheels will lock. If you go slightly beyond the point, back off a little and now you know your threshold point for those road conditions. Better to learn that way than to do it without ABS and if you accidentally go beyond the threshold point potentially dumping the bike while practicing.

Anyhow just my 2 cents...figure there will be at least 10 militant "bike should not come with ABS, we shouldn't have to wear helmets, and cars shouldn't have seatbelts because it promotes crashing" comments that show up below.
Click to expand...

well said also.. im considering abs on my next purchase (no time soon) but I do alot of riding downtown and there are alot of stupid people.. lol might be good as a safety net as you said
 
ABS can make insurance cheaper too... for a new rider. I am a new rider and opted to buy a bike with ABS. I haven't had it kick in yet, but will be glad it is there if I need it.
 
i have a ninja 300...been riding 2 seasons...she's still sweet, sexy and so very fun (even with ABS)!!
 
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see my Sig!
 
I look at this the way I look at the encroachment of technology into other areas of life: It's a moving train that can't be stopped that, while bringing benefits, is going to result in lesser overall skills on the part of drivers and riders alike.

Cars have lots of technology now. Some can parallel park themselves, have lanekeeping-assist indicators, have forward facing radar and collision-avoidance tech, backup cameras, blindspot warnings and so on. Nice tech to be sure, but are drivers replacing competence with reliance on this tech? Why do we need help maintaining a lane? Why do we need a machine to be watching the road ahead for things we're about to hit? Can we not turn our heads and use our mirrors and look to see while backing up? And what is it about checking blindspots that eludes people to the point we need sensors to tell us a car or bike is beside us?

We're going to breed a generation of people completely reliant on tech and incompetent otherwise. Skills that are unused will atrophy. We can only hope that these folks will always drive vehicles with these crutches because if they have to drive a model without such aids we're doomed.

ABS on a motorcycle is a good idea; they're inherently unstable vehicles and people (especially newer riders) in a panic situation may apply enough braking pressure to lock the wheels and crash. It seems like a nice safety net that has few downsides. But riders shouldn't rely on it and let their braking skills atrophy, just as they shouldn't rely on hi-viz (being seen) or being heard for their safety on the road. All the other skills like situational awareness, planning, looking ahead etc etc are still paramount.
 
Blackfin said:
I look at this the way I look at the encroachment of technology into other areas of life: It's a moving train that can't be stopped that, while bringing benefits, is going to result in lesser overall skills on the part of drivers and riders alike. Cars have lots of technology now. Some can parallel park themselves, have lanekeeping-assist indicators, have forward facing radar and collision-avoidance tech, backup cameras, blindspot warnings and so on. Nice tech to be sure, but are drivers replacing competence with reliance on this tech? Why do we need help maintaining a lane? Why do we need a machine to be watching the road ahead for things we're about to hit? Can we not turn our heads and use our mirrors and look to see while backing up? And what is it about checking blindspots that eludes people to the point we need sensors to tell us a car or bike is beside us? We're going to breed a generation of people completely reliant on tech and incompetent otherwise. Skills that are unused will atrophy. We can only hope that these folks will always drive vehicles with these crutches because if they have to drive a model without such aids we're doomed. ABS on a motorcycle is a good idea; they're inherently unstable vehicles and people (especially newer riders) in a panic situation may apply enough braking pressure to lock the wheels and crash. It seems like a nice safety net that has few downsides. But riders shouldn't rely on it and let their braking skills atrophy, just as they shouldn't rely on hi-viz (being seen) or being heard for their safety on the road. All the other skills like situational awareness, planning, looking ahead etc etc are still paramount.
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You seem to be mixing up the cause and effect.
If the majority of people were diligently practicing their Emergency Braking, then there wouldn't be a general market for ABS.

People who practice, will do so, whether they have ABS or not.
People who won't practice, will not do so, whether they have ABS or not.
 
Baggsy said:
You seem to be mixing up the cause and effect.
If the majority of people were diligently practicing their Emergency Braking, then there wouldn't be a general market for ABS.

People who practice, will do so, whether they have ABS or not.
People who won't practice, will not do so, whether they have ABS or not.
Click to expand...

It's an effective enough feature to warrant EU regulators to require them as standard equipment as of Jan 1 2016. If one dug deep enough one could probably find a raft of empirical safety data supporting its implementation. TBH, it just make sense, especially since locking either tire on a bike can have immediate and potentially devastating consequences.

I doubt most riders practice anything. Noobs might be nervous enough to do some work but most probably don't check their tires and chains and lights (etc) before riding out. They might shine the hell out of their chrome or wax their fairings on Sat morning but many are probably pretty negligent in other areas, like maintenance and continuous incremental improvements of skill levels.

I just think that systems like this (and the ones that I mentioned on cars etc) will result in the erosion of whatever skills (like emergency braking, shoulder checks, parking etc) a person has when a machine is doing most of the work.
 
Blackfin said:
It's an effective enough feature to warrant EU regulators to require them as standard equipment as of Jan 1 2016. If one dug deep enough one could probably find a raft of empirical safety data supporting its implementation. TBH, it just make sense, especially since locking either tire on a bike can have immediate and potentially devastating consequences.

I doubt most riders practice anything. Noobs might be nervous enough to do some work but most probably don't check their tires and chains and lights (etc) before riding out. They might shine the hell out of their chrome or wax their fairings on Sat morning but many are probably pretty negligent in other areas, like maintenance and continuous incremental improvements of skill levels.

I just think that systems like this (and the ones that I mentioned on cars etc) will result in the erosion of whatever skills (like emergency braking, shoulder checks, parking etc) a person has when a machine is doing most of the work.
Click to expand...

If they aren't practicing, then there are no skills to erode.
 
I picked up a bike with ABS as my first bike. I'm a new rider, but been a car guy for years. Yes obviously learning and actually using threshold braking is the ideal way to stop in either a car or bike.

Everyone has the opinion "oh in situation X, you should do Y". And yes they might be 100% correct. But if you're on a track (or even a quiet country road), it's one thing. You're in a semi-controlled environment and you can focus almost completely on just operating the machine. When you're on the street, you can try to predict what people will do but it's impossible to predict what's going to happen 100% of the time. Let's be honest guys, you do your best to keep your butt out of trouble but **** happens. And if a "crutch" like ABS is gonna keep you and your bike off the asphalt the rare moment you need it, I think the answer is pretty simple.
 
Baggsy said:
If they aren't practicing, then there are no skills to erode.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you mean by "practicing." Someone that's driven a car since the 1980s -- and who is otherwise a decent driver -- probably checks their mirrors and blindspots with over-the-shoulder checks because that's just what they've always done and it's how they were taught. That person then buys a 2016 Ford Whizbang and gets into the habit of relying on the back-up camera for parking or the nifty mirror-light-thingy warning of a vehicle coming up beside them; it's quite possible that the "good habits" he had will disappear over time because he's relying on the automation now.

I'm obviously not the first to have thought of this:

"So, on the road to fully driverless vehicles research must address the issue of reviving a driver’s attention when the vehicle encounters situations it can’t handle on its own. Reimer says, “Driving is a monotonous activity to start with,” and the self-driving car is “making [it] even more monotonous.” The more reliable the autonomous car is, he adds, the harder it will be for a person to be aware and alert when a problem occurs. “The assumption today is that as we automate more, the driver’s skill will maintain integrity.” But instead, the reverse is true. “As the number of vehicle miles driven diverges from the vehicle miles traveled, skill erosion will occur,” he says. “We’re the threat to the automation.”" (source)

and

"Some industry observers are concerned that making cars smarter, more aware and more independent could erode driver skills. That could become an inevitable effect of automobile evolution, just as fewer people today can operate a manual transmission than in motoring’s early days." (source)

It needn't necessarily just be stuff we (should) "practice" all the time like emergency braking; it could also be things that just become engrained in muscle memory and habit that will fade as they fall into disuse.
 
As a driver having driven with cars that had ABS and no ABS, I'd recommend practicing on both and using an ABS bike as your primary. Why? You'd have the skills to handle both types of vehicles-- the ABS as some people have mentioned would be a safety net, especially when it comes to wet road conditions.
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