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Motorcycle crash captured on dashcam

FLSTC said:
Unfortunately, I don't agree.

I believe that the M1-2 course should include an explanation of countersteering/push-steering, and should include the at-speed obstacle avoidance drill (which requires you to quickly bank/turn the motorcycle to avoid the obstacle and again to recover upright/straight).
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I am not sure who is arguing against having instructors explain counter steering? And any drills are always good drills.

.... but having the expectation that a new rider should depend on what they were explained during the training to react to a dangerous situation that would involve the rider thinking first and then reacting when counter steering is required is just silly

Oh look, there is a deer on the road.... let me remember what I was explained during my course...do I push or pull or do I just plow this deer because I ran out of time to think about it.
 
And should include explanation of how the front brake and rear brake on your motorcycle works, how weight transfers to the front wheel during braking (with corresponding lack of traction in the rear) and include the emergency braking drill, combined with the brake-or-turn exercise.

I disagree with the 'you're a newb, you won't understand, so we're not gonna tell you that 'cause it might confuse you' train of thought.
 
FLSTC said:
And should include explanation of how the front brake and rear brake on your motorcycle works, how weight transfers to the front wheel during braking (with corresponding lack of traction in the rear) and include the emergency braking drill, combined with the brake-or-turn exercise.

I disagree with the 'you're a newb, you won't understand, so we're not gonna tell you that 'cause it might confuse you' train of thought.
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Not sure where you took your course but everything you described is right out of the book that we do train at the course.
 
FLSTC said:
nd should include the at-speed obstacle avoidance drill (which requires you to quickly bank/turn the motorcycle to avoid the obstacle and again to recover upright/straight).
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It does. Which inherently teaches push steering as it would be impossible to compete the exercise without doing so.

taximan62 said:
Not sure where you took your course but everything you described is right out of the book that we do train at the course.
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x2.
 
It's funny: I'd ridden bicycles and "BMX" bikes (who remembers those?) back in the 1970s and 1980s and raced motorcross in the early 1980s and never once, even when the training wheels were on and dad was patiently teaching me to ride ca.1973, did I hear the term "push steering." It just came naturally. You cannot ride a bicycle at speed without using this technique.

Do motorcycle courses have to teach this because they can't assume everyone has experience riding even bicycles? Perhaps these classes should start off not showing people how to use their motorcycle's kickstand or how to walk beside one but rather riding a bicycle at speed around a set of cones. People who fail to do this should be booted from the course (their tuition refunded) and told to learn how to do that and then re-schedule their motorcycle course for a later date. Along with that change "countersteering" and "pushsteering" would be forever banished from the syllabus.

I think the issue of "counter steering" is a needless overcomplication that takes what people instinctively do when riding any two-wheeled vehicle -- even 5 year olds pick it up naturally when the training wheels come off -- and turns it into something they are led to believe is this super-complex, mysterious, counterintuitive thing they have to think about all the time.
 
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That applies to us older folks but these new generations that learn everything from you tube and over think everything, they think they need the explanation and to understand the technical explanation on how to do things they should do without thinking. It's funny seen millennials trying to drive standard, many just don't get it.

I sound like my dad now... Damn it
 
Blackfin said:
Do motorcycle courses have to teach this because they can't assume everyone has experience riding even bicycles?
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Fellow rider friend told me a story last week about one guy in his course who was unable to maintain a straight line during the very beginning "push your teammate on the motorcycle" part of the course. Everytime he got pushed those 10 or 15 feet he'd veer off the line and almost fall over.

Turns out he didn't know how to ride a bicycle.

So yeah, it happens..but I agree, anyone that HAS ridden a bicycle and achieved any level of proficiency should be naturally doing push steering without even realizing what they're doing. Many of the exercises in the M1X courses utilize it in such a fashion that without it, you'd never get through the exercises, or the exam exercises at the end of the course.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Fellow rider friend told me a story last week about one guy in his course who was unable to maintain a straight line during the very beginning "push your teammate on the motorcycle" part of the course. Everytime he got pushed those 10 or 15 feet he'd veer off the line and almost fall over.

Turns out he didn't know how to ride a bicycle.
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I would sort of expect that should be a prerequisite for entering an M1X course:

- boots that cover the ankle, check,
- gloves, check,
- jacket, check
- DOT-approved helmet, check,
- M1 license in hand, check
- can ride a bicycle through a set of cones successfully, er...um...no

Sorry. Learn & become proficient at that skill first, then learn the basics of piloting a motorized two-wheeled vehicle capable of far higher speeds in more dangerous situations than a push-bike.
 
That's a prerequisite for the kids to do demos with the Junior Red Riders....just sayin'.

Sent from my custom purple Joe Bass mobile device using Tapatalk
 
I just looked at both Durham College as well as Centennials course pages for the M1X courses and neither mention 2 wheel proficiency as being a prerequisite. Like Blackfin said, I'd find it hard to believe that anyone who would sign up for this course would assume they're going to teach "how to ride a 2 wheeled vehicle" as part of the training...but wow, given the sheltered nature of some kids reaching driving age now it's wouldn't surprise me that more and more kids without these very basic skills are going to start showing up.
 
i did the m2 course on monday and tuesday.
its sort of scary that so little is required to pass.

i myself passed without any errors but i would never ride my bike onto the main road until i practise on my bike for a solid 100km of parking lot riding.
 
FLSTC said:
No, they're arguing that Counter Steering is Intuitive, and any explanation or training of this technique is Counterintuitive.
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No, steering a bike is intuitive. Explaining the mechanics behind it confuses the subject.

"Push steer, counter steer, what? I'm just turning the bike leave me alone!"
 
dina said:
i did the m2 course on monday and tuesday.
its sort of scary that so little is required to pass.

i myself passed without any errors but i would never ride my bike onto the main road until i practise on my bike for a solid 100km of parking lot riding.
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Probably why a 16 year old on a street bike is almost impossible to insure...

Having a few years of road experience helped before got my first bike, but the riding course alone would definitely not be enough experience for someone to hit the main roads.

That being said, a 16 year old with an M1 with absolutely 0 seat time on the streets can legally ride around on a "borrowed" SS. All they need is a helmet....:rolleyes:
 
ZX600 said:
That applies to us older folks but these new generations that learn everything from you tubet
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Guilty!

Wrote my M1, bought a motorcycle and had the guy deliver it to my garage. Put on youtube and learned about gearing, learned about stalling, learned about counter steering and tons more! Walked my bike half a block to an empty school parking lot and went around in circles and circles. Kept doing that until I learned how to not stall the bike, how to properly change gears, how to steer at slow or quicker speed.

Tbh you can literally learn anything online nowadays, not saying the course is useless because with an experienced rider there to guide me no doubt I would have learned way quicker and the tips and warnings would have proved super valuable. However, I'd say a fine way to learn is to just get to a safe environment, have some basic knowledge and just experiment.
 
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TiburonJA said:
Tbh you can literally learn anything online nowadays
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As a horseman I've met a few people over the years who thought they'd learned to ride horses by watching YouTube videos and reading some websites.

I'm not going to say it's useless, but..to think you can learn all there is to know about many sports just by watching videos can lead to rude awakenings. It may help teach you some of what you should know, it may help explain the theory behind things, but you can read and watch videos on a topic until your eyes roll into the back of your head, but nothing replaces actual time doing it, and almost everyone that shows up overconfident based on what they learned online gets a rude awakening.

The kids who spent a year watching horse and "learn to ride!" videos on YouTube often showed up and then realized they didn't even know how to tack a horse to even get started (Because nobody ever thinks of watching videos of that boring before and after riding stuff, just the "Good stuff" right?) then very VERY quickly discover that they actually get up on the horse and all that "training" goes right out the window. They're barely able to stay in the saddle at a walk and want to canter/gallop around the arena already because "it looks easy on the video and everyone does it!". If you let them do what they're convinced they're capable of they'd be on their head in the dirt inside 10 seconds.

So, just saying. Educating yourself ahead of time is never a bad idea, and videos and reading have their place, but suggesting that someone can become proficient at riding a motorcycle simply by watching a bunch of videos isn't really that accurate. ;)
 
TiburonJA said:
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However, I'd say a fine way to learn is to just get to a safe environment, have some basic knowledge and just experiment.
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Some good seat time like this is really the key to testing out whatever ideas are bouncing around in your head. It's something even rider training programs should encourage before they let everyone loose. Practise in a safe space like an empty lot, go at your own pace, try different things. Instead it's like here's your certificate, you're a rider now! Yikes.
 
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