Legacy license . . .

Hello,

In the 1980s I wrote a test and got my M. I rode for 15 years. I got speeding tickets. I renewed my sticker. I bought and sold 4 bikes.

Fast forward to 2016. I haven't rode in years, but I plan to this Spring. Lo and behold, when I call the appropriate government office they are telling me they only have a record of me taking the "learners," that there is no record of a road test. I never DID take a road test because I don't think in the mid-80s you had to take one to get your M.

How did I show my license to the police and get my sticker for all those years and all those bikes and nobody notices?

Can anyone tell me with certainty that a road test was required in the 80s in Ontario? Or not.

I am tired of being blown off by clerks.

Thanks, people.

Pasty

If you did it thru a course, no road test would have been needed. I never did.

Check your licence.
If the class is GM or just M, you`re in. You have a motorcycle licence.
All those who had an M licence when the graduated system came in during the 1990s were grandfathered in.
No course required, no special test required.
Only those who got their M after the system began had to go through M1 or M2.

To date myself, I was a teen during the 1960s when the small Honda 150 cc bikes first appeared in Canada.
All that was required to ride one of them was a learner`s permit.

That's the thing: My license just says G. But I got my license in the 80s -- and you say a Road Test was not required. If that is true, can't I not make that claim with confidence to the lady on the phone who tells me I |didn't do a road test" that I didn't have to and they need to put the M back on license? Thanks again . . .

If there's no M on your lic. now you're SOL. Anyone that had it would have kept it as it didn't expire.

I know it didn't expire. But I believe it's a clerical error. I stopped riding for a period of time so it was not an issue. Now it is. Why am I SOL? If there was no Road Test required in the 80s -- which is what my post specifically asked -- then I can say, "You have a record of my written test in 198*. There was NO road test in the 80s. Therefore, there should be an M on my license. There is no grey area.

Go to a police station and politely explain your situation to the officer at the desk and see if there's someone you can talk to privately, then ask if they'll open up your "Restricted" drivers abstract on their computers - it will show your licence details back to the first day you were licensed, including every single change (class addition/removal, restriction, renewal, etc) back to the very beginning. If you had an M on your licence at one point, it will show there.

They should also be able to see that it no longer IS there. They might even be able to tell you why, for that matter...or at the very least, when it was removed.

Hard to say if they'll be able to fix it themselves, but they could probably give you some sort of documented proof you DID have it before and it not being there now is indeed an error of some sort...then you could take that to a drivetest center and begin your saga there, because I suspect it will be a saga. Ask for a manager immediately if the droid at the counter doesn't see things your way. If they don't resolve the issue, call your MPP and again politely explain the situation - they can help, I know from first hand experience with a licencing issue of my own.

I got my learners permit in 1986, it was valid for 365 days. I had to do an on road test to get my full M. This was in Ontario.


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Iceman said:

I got my learners permit in 1986, it was valid for 365 days. I had to do an on road test to get my full M. This was in Ontario.


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I seem to remember it the same way. I got mine in 1992 and had to get a beginners and then a 'road test' that was mostly in a parking lot aside from one block around the testing center.

My older brother would have got his around 86 or 87 and had the same thing.

A different brother who got his M in 1981 somehow lost his too -- but his story is a bit more convoluted. He got an impaired, moved to B.C. and got a new car license as the systems weren't linked yet, and then returned to Ontario about 10 years later.

When he moved back to Ontario he converted his B.C. license to Ontario and got a full G, but he never got a motorcycle license in B.C... A couple years back he wanted to ride again, so he went and got his M and had to do the graduated licensing thing.

I'm not sure whatever happened to his original Ontario license he got back in 1981. I guess he never renewed it after the impaired and just forgot about it.

I got my M in 74 at the Warden & Eglington office,still did a road test.First I was made to go thru some pylons stop on a line explained a few controls,then they watched me go up Warden turn around and come back.Paid my $3.00 and got my temporary licence.

To clarify: If you did a course, you didn't do a road test per se cause the testing was done on the Sun as part of the course. So in a sense it was and wasn't a road test as it was in the parking lot doing the drills your were being taught all weekend.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you didn't have an M on your lic. the whole time or did you and now don't?

I have copies of all my docs from my learner's permit on and have them scanned in archive....actually I have all, from my birth certificate onwards scanned.

You never got a full M, I got my M in 1976 and they had a written and a practical test back then.

the written test was a temporary, you still had to book and compete a practical test

Iceman said:

I got my learners permit in 1986, it was valid for 365 days. I had to do an on road test to get my full M. This was in Ontario.


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Same for me back in 1987. Got my learners on a Monday and did the test the same Friday. New rider no experience and $350 for the year on the 77 CJ360T

Thank you for the comprehensive reply. I appreciate it.

I want to add something to those who, with best intentions, maintain a "road test" was required and which I never did.

After I did the written test, I started riding. I rode for more than 365 days. I was pulled over multiple times by the police and NEVER did they tell me my "temp" license was invalid. Also, how was I able to obtain motorcycle insurance on FOUR different bike? The first thing you provide an insurance company is your driver's license. Wouldn't they look to see, among other things, that you were legal to drive a motorcycle? It defies logic and reason that I was driving illegally for over 10 years.

I did get a DUI and lost my license for 13 months. After that I wasn't riding a bike, just driving. So I never looked at my license for the "M" designation. Is it possible when they reinstated my license they neglected to put the "M" back?

I'm not a knucklehead. I play by the rules (and when I don't I pay the price.) But this just doesn't pass the sniff test. Everything I've said is accurate.

In the mid '80s you could do your riding test on a closed course at Keele/401. It had fake but full size traffic lights and stop signs, sort of like a small town course. Do you recall this kind of test? That's all you needed to pass for your M back then. Do you have any of your old licenses? If you did get your M then you should have kept your M from way back.

Pasty said:

...After that I wasn't riding a bike, just driving. So I never looked at my license for the "M" designation. Is it possible when they reinstated my license they neglected to put the "M" back?...

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I moved to Alberta for a couple of years and had my GM. When I came back my M was gone, so I went down to the MoT and they corrected it. How do you correct this error now I don't know.

And BTW you do not need a motorcycle license to insure a motorcycle. You only need cash to pay.

Pasty said:

After I did the written test, I started riding. I rode for more than 365 days. I was pulled over multiple times by the police and NEVER did they tell me my "temp" license was invalid. Also, how was I able to obtain motorcycle insurance on FOUR different bike? The first thing you provide an insurance company is your driver's license. Wouldn't they look to see, among other things, that you were legal to drive a motorcycle? It defies logic and reason that I was driving illegally for over 10 years.

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Much before the mid 90's it was difficult for police to check things "on the fly", so if your paper licence showed an M endorsement (even a temp one) it's quite likely the officers just took it at face value. Verifying it in the 80's would have meant a call on the radio and a likely lengthy delay while the dispatcher looked it up on paper somewhere.

Insurance, same issue. Before the AutoPlus system was instituted insurance records were not shared amongst different companies and they also were almost certainly not as well connected to the MTO as they are now...so who knows, they might not have even checked you had the proper class licence, or taken your claim at face value, or didn't care. To this day you can insure a vehicle you don't have a proper class of licence to drive (ie, you could get insurance on a Peterbilt despite not having a class A licence to actually drive it), nothing is stopping you, so it could have been a similar situation back then compounded by the lack of easy computer verification like is common today.

Plate sticker? Again, class doesn't matter, all it matters is that you have a licence - a driver and vehicle licence office will gladly take your money still to renew a plate sticker on a motorcycle even if you don't actually have a motorcycle endorsement on your licence. A plate is a plate to them, show up with proof of insurance, the only requirement, and you're golden.

So, if this was truly the situation...it seems like you flew under the radar for 10 years and got away with it. Back then, totally plausible IMHO.

Pasty said:

I want to add something to those who, with best intentions, maintain a "road test" was required and which I never did.

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I would say that if you did not perform a road test of some sort you did not earn a full M endorsement.

I got my M at the 401/Keele testing centre in 1972 and the only way to get a M licence even back then was to do a road test on their closed course. The crazy thing was you could not legally ride on the road to get experience until the day of your test when you were allowed to ride there. Fortunately I passed so I did not have to wonder if I would be allowed to ride home, should I have failed.

As has been suggested by others, you might have simply operated under a false assumption for 10 years because the systems in place in the '80s were not able to identify that you did not have the proper endorsement on your licence.

If you cannot find proof that you had an M licence somewhere on your drivers abstract, it will be nearly impossible to convince anyone at the MTO to grant this designation to your licence.

Did mine in '80 , temp M after written test, road test required to get full M . Road test was on a closed course somewhere near the airport.

Malks said:

I got my M at the 401/Keele testing centre in 1972 and the only way to get a M licence even back then was to do a road test on their closed course. The crazy thing was you could not legally ride on the road to get experience until the day of your test when you were allowed to ride there. Fortunately I passed so I did not have to wonder if I would be allowed to ride home, should I have failed.

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I got my M designation in 1978. As I remember, you took the written test to get your temporary 365, that allowed you to legally pilot the bike for one year to gain experience. Then you took the road test on the closed course as you describe. The kicker was that you could legally ride the motorcycle to the test site, but if you failed the road test, you couldn't legally ride away from the test site. You had forfeited your 365 at that point.

I believe I can shed some light on your issue. As an officer in the 70's and 80's it was impossible as it is today for me on the road to confirm your licence status. To do so I would radio dispatch, who had VERY limited information available to them, (IE where you wanted or had your licence been suspended, but back then let's say you were convicted of impaired, quite often it took WEEKS for that information to be inputted into the system, not like today where your flagged virtually before you leave the courthouse). If we needed more in depth information it was only available 8 - 4:40 Mon - Fri, (MTO working hours).

As for getting insurance, as you have relayed you honestly "believed" you had a full M and insurance back then asked, as they do today, if you had an M licence. Difference is today they can access MTO records instantly and confirm back then they "just took you at your word" Also having a class of licence is not a requirement for insurance. IE you can buy a bike and get insurance today on it, even if you plan to obtain your licence in the spring. Not having the licence does not mean you will be denied coverage. Now if you got insurance like that and went out riding without a licence there is a highly likelihood they would deny the claim...lol But they WILL take your money for premiums.

So you haven't said you took a course, and you don't recall doing a "road test" which back then would have been done my MTO staff , (pre Service Ontario), at an actual MTO office parking lot. Then you would have never progressed past the "learners permit" stage. If your tickets were after the 365 day mark, then it was likely an oversight by the officer, (we did things a LOT differently back then). As for buying and selling bikes again you don't need a licence to do so. You can buy and sell bikes as a curb sider for example without ever having gotten even an M1.

So given that your current licence today shows you as a G class driver, (even if it was a clerical error, which will be VERY hard to prove, as you can't show you took a road test), your unfortunately going to have to begin as an M1 rider. You said you haven't rode "in years" has it been more than ten years? The other "scenario" is you had a full M but never bothered having it remain on your licence, if it has been more than 10 years since it was last was last active, then you also have to revert to the graduated system, and begin as an M1 rider.

PS check insurance BEFORE you buy a bike. As an M1 rider your going to need lots of lube. Insurance will NOT accept any previous licencing experience to them you are a brand new rider, because you will be showing as an M1 licence.

Good luck