Inching towards killing the moto industry in the GTA | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Inching towards killing the moto industry in the GTA

This coming season will be my tenth on a bike. Your complaints are the exact same as were voiced back then when I first got my license. If you're bored, browse the GTAM archives if they still exist.

Believe it or not, the industry appears to be healthier today than it was back then.

Appealing low cc bikes simply didn't exist back then, outside of the EX250/EX500 twins and the GS500, I can't think of any other sub 600cc bikes available then that weren't dual sports or cruisers. As a new rider looking for a small bike to learn on, there wasn't much out there. The emergence of sporty low cc bikes has removed a huge barrier of entry for new riders.

Insurance was expensive back then, and it still is, this hasn't changed. My first year riding, I paid $2400 (from memory, could have been $2200) in 2006 dollars my first year for an '86 Yamaha Radian (google it).

Availability of shops is about the same as back then, the names and owners may have changed, but the overall number is similar. If anything, premium European products (like Dainese, Rev'it, etc.) are much much easier to find today than they were back then. In 2006, almost every shop basically carried the same Joe Rocket and Icon junk.

Every year, I know more and more people getting their license. Can't speak for numbers, but I would think there are more riders than ever. I definitely see way more on the roads than before.
 
Let's put things in a realistic perspective.

1) Motorcycling is as popular as ever.

2) Motorcycling is safer than ever according to Ontario Road Safety Annual Report.

3) Motorcycles are still very cheap to buy.

4) Insurance was always a rip-off in Ontario for everyone not just motorcyclists.

5) The government has never liked motorcycles. They tolerate them because too many people want to keep them on the road.

6) Nothing said in this thread that wasn't being said 30 years ago. You want action? Join a motorcycle rights group. They still exist and they could use your help. If you don't, who will? You get back what you put into it.
 
-D- said:
Motorcycles are a liability to the Government (OHIP).
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My uninformed opinion tells me it's about social engineering. "They"(anybody with an ounce of influence) see us as buffoons, and are making the appropriate adjustments. I'm seeing a team effort, conference calls and back room deals with insurance c/w $17 orange juice. It's that simple.
 
"Crazy Ontario drivers" - yeah, there's a lot of bad ones but that hasn't really changed in the last few years. Our licensing and training system is weak. You have to be extra careful on the bike anyhow.

Riding season isn't THAT short - around 7 months in comfort, maybe 8 even, some people take it further, I don't. Gives me time for other hobbies - like snowboarding.

Potential parking fees in Toronto do not affect me personally as I don't ride for pleasure or work there. I disagree with them but I don't think that a large percentage of people will stop riding if they establish this new regulation.

Now, I do realize that some people have a difficulty insuring their super sports but really, there are plenty of motorcycles that offer very similar performance without being "blacklistested."
I pay less for insurance then when I started (6 years ago), allowing me to own 2 bikes at the same time. Would I like to save more money? I'd love to but at least we're not getting punished like poor Quebec residents with their crazy *** plate stickers.

HOV usage would be nice but I can survive without it. I disagree with existence of our HOV lanes, especially the way they are set up right now. Nevertheless, it's a minor annoyance.

I don't see any signs of struggle from local shops/stores. Some are closing, some are opening. Some shrinking, some growing. Nothing new.
Prices have become a bit more competitive with the States recently and that with a weaker Canadian dollar. Largely through the emergence of successful Canadian online stores.

The only change that I really would like to see is ending the ridiculous M1 license which allows people to ride motorcycles without ANY experience whatsoever. But that has been in place for years so not a recent item.

To summarize, I'm in support of more parking, more awareness, less fees, etc. but unless there are some drastic changes or I'm not physically able to - I don't see myself being discouraged from riding any time soon. OP - I think your outlook is a tad too dark.
 
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Don't get me started on the term "sport" to describe motorcycling. Every time someone calls motorcycling a 'sport' the industry dies a little. Hahaha... and the government, and every 'cager' cares a little less about something that simply doesn't concern them.

I agree with those that bring up points about Canada's climate. Unlike California, a motorcycle is not a viable year-around mode of transportation for 99.99% of the population. The direct outcome of that will be a greatly varied degree of understanding, interest and concern about it from all bodies - Government, 'cagers', etc..

RATHER, e-bikes, mopeds and scooters in the city-centres are definitely something the city needs to focus on when it comes to planning and enforcement. These are NOT going anywhere and only becoming more enticing to use as the population density grows. However, I'll nod to the fact that the "riding season" is when tourism and overall traffic volume picks up in Ontario. Finding ways to encourage the use of motorcycles for commuting would certainly be a step in the right direction. For example, HOV use & parking incentives.
 
My insurance went down to zero.
.
.
.
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Got me a flip plate and courage
 
happycrappy said:
The only tangible change I can see is the perpetual decline of good sense from young riders, in the capacity of what type of bike to start with.
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This.

GTAM is sportbike centric, that's for sure, and young rider leaning secondarily...yet the overwhelming majority of the riders want big high performance sport-oriented bikes and then get upset when the insurance is expensive. Suggest a smaller or different style of bike and nobody is interested.

My wife is just getting into riding, doesn't even have her M1 yet. I bought her a 250 Marauder. Cheap to purchase, simple, reliable, and best of all....her insurance quote is $475 full coverage for her first year.

If her sole goal entering riding was to have some shiny high CC supersport bike and she was NOT willing to compromise.. her insurance would probably be 4X (hell, probably 6 or 8 times, actually) that...but that'd be entirely her fault. Would she be justified in complaining about it online because she *wanted* the SS? Both allow entry into the sport, both get you from A to B, both put the wind in your face. One sure is way "Cooler" than the other though, right? But that's where the issues begin...

Is our insurance off kilter here compared to other areas? Absolutely...but at the same time some people need to learn to compromise and deal with the realities we are being dished out - if you can't swallow the insurance costs on the bike you want, then perhaps it's time to consider a compromise and buy a bike you CAN afford instead. Anyone who can afford a bike to begin with can afford ~$500/year for insurance, or hell, even double that - the kid that owned the Marauder before her was <25, M2 licence, and still paying just slightly under $1K. He enjoyed the bike but with some experience under his belt was moving up to a still reasonable 750 non-SS bike for the same insurance rate upon his renewal.
 
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happycrappy said:
Not to sound like I'm dismissing concerns, but there is nothing in this post that wasn't true 30 years ago. The only tangible change I can see is the perpetual decline of good sense from young riders, in the capacity of what type of bike to start with. A healthy industry is dependent on people being able to enter into it at a sustainable pace, develop a love and experience of the process, and eventually grow into a lifelong customer. In the horribly pathetic "I need it now" mentality that is our social cancer these days, bikes are far more representative of debt, and being overwhelmed with options of crap they don't need, gear that matches said crap, etc. Riders don't need to pitch their little inconveniences to the general public; they don't care and generally and rightfully hate your pathetic ****ing whining. Buy a bike you can actually afford, and go ride. Financing, and tricked out brand new bikes will definitely shorten the list of riders within their first year or two of riding. And buy the way, I don't have a particular hate for sportbikes or anything, but collectively you guys have made it real easy for the public to cheer on anything that will hurt the enjoyment of those rides. Stupid pipes, stupid riding, crashing and dying into the side of a cop car, hours of youtube documentaries on how to be the biggest retard on earth, hate to say it, but as a group it is pretty easy to see why nobody else will EVER give a flying **** about your insurance rates or where you can park. Don't shoot the messenger, that's just how it is[/QUOTE]

I was with you up to the underline...

Stupid pipes? I see -actually hear a hell of a lot more cruiser/harley bikes with loud pipes. I live on a rather popular route for both cruisers and sport bikes and I'd say about 25% of sport bikes are hellishly loud and around 85/90% of cruisers are hellishly loud. BUT, its damn near 100% of those loud cruisers that are either full throttle up the hill or just cracking the throttle to backfire, pop and fart on the way down. They are clearly intentionally making as much noise as possible. I race, my race bike isn't even close to the kind of loud the cruiser crowd seems to believe is "saving lives".

Stupid riding? Ya, some and perhaps even the majority of sport bike riders ride like fools but this is certainly not a sport bike only phenomena. I've seen some unbelievably stupid moves come from the cruiser crowd too. The "we own the road over all other traffic" mentality is very healthy with cruiser/harley folks and that won't help non-riders hate us? How about the vest of invincibility intimidation factor? That's winning over mini-van moms and turning them into fans?

Crashing and dying into pretty well anything is also popular among both groups, don't the stats show more middle-aged non sport bike deaths in Ontario than any others? <--I'm not positive about this, look it up and call me out on it if I'm wrong.

People like you are also a part the reason this industry won't ever gain much leverage in Ontario/Canada.... There is no solidarity. "Those guys" aren't real riders because they don't have the same bikes as us/ride like us/do the same DUMB stuff as us. The hate halves or thirds the numbers. All types of riders do stupid things that make bikes look bad, I'm sure even you and I contribute to that. Sometimes inward reflection is difficult.
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I like this! Even if it was the same thing 30 years ago, well... a lot of us weren't around 30 years ago. So getting a conversation going is always good.

A lot of things are changing in this generation and it might be in your lifetime (from baby boomers to millenials) that you see gas cars being replaced slowly but surely by an alternative as green becomes not just a fad but more "essential" to the quality of life. If you look at this past century, SO MUCH has already happened and evolved so maybe my outlook on the future of the motorcycle in the GTA might sound grim but when i look at what speed things are changing in an exponential manner, i can only start to imagine what might be the transportation landscape when i'm retired.

I've involved myself on a smaller scale (my workplace motorbike demographic, about 30-40) and it's a lot easier to discuss on a smaller scale to start off before looking at the whole GTA demographic! Gives a better training ground imo ...

Keep talking :) ideas from the community are always welcome
 
172Driver said:
happycrappy said:
Not to sound like I'm dismissing concerns, but there is nothing in this post that wasn't true 30 years ago. The only tangible change I can see is the perpetual decline of good sense from young riders, in the capacity of what type of bike to start with. A healthy industry is dependent on people being able to enter into it at a sustainable pace, develop a love and experience of the process, and eventually grow into a lifelong customer. In the horribly pathetic "I need it now" mentality that is our social cancer these days, bikes are far more representative of debt, and being overwhelmed with options of crap they don't need, gear that matches said crap, etc. Riders don't need to pitch their little inconveniences to the general public; they don't care and generally and rightfully hate your pathetic ****ing whining. Buy a bike you can actually afford, and go ride. Financing, and tricked out brand new bikes will definitely shorten the list of riders within their first year or two of riding. And buy the way, I don't have a particular hate for sportbikes or anything, but collectively you guys have made it real easy for the public to cheer on anything that will hurt the enjoyment of those rides. Stupid pipes, stupid riding, crashing and dying into the side of a cop car, hours of youtube documentaries on how to be the biggest retard on earth, hate to say it, but as a group it is pretty easy to see why nobody else will EVER give a flying **** about your insurance rates or where you can park. Don't shoot the messenger, that's just how it is[/QUOTE]

I was with you up to the underline...

Stupid pipes? I see -actually hear a hell of a lot more cruiser/harley bikes with loud pipes. I live on a rather popular route for both cruisers and sport bikes and I'd say about 25% of sport bikes are hellishly loud and around 85/90% of cruisers are hellishly loud. BUT, its damn near 100% of those loud cruisers that are either full throttle up the hill or just cracking the throttle to backfire, pop and fart on the way down. They are clearly intentionally making as much noise as possible. I race, my race bike isn't even close to the kind of loud the cruiser crowd seems to believe is "saving lives".

Stupid riding? Ya, some and perhaps even the majority of sport bike riders ride like fools but this is certainly not a sport bike only phenomena. I've seen some unbelievably stupid moves come from the cruiser crowd too. The "we own the road over all other traffic" mentality is very healthy with cruiser/harley folks and that won't help non-riders hate us? How about the vest of invincibility intimidation factor? That's winning over mini-van moms and turning them into fans?

Crashing and dying into pretty well anything is also popular among both groups, don't the stats show more middle-aged non sport bike deaths in Ontario than any others? <--I'm not positive about this, look it up and call me out on it if I'm wrong.

People like you are also a part the reason this industry won't ever gain much leverage in Ontario/Canada.... There is no solidarity. "Those guys" aren't real riders because they don't have the same bikes as us/ride like us/do the same DUMB stuff as us. The hate halves or thirds the numbers. All types of riders do stupid things that make bikes look bad, I'm sure even you and I contribute to that. Sometimes inward reflection is difficult.
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As I said, don't shoot the messenger. I won't argue about your point about the cruisers pipes; I'm just saying whenever you get a public opinion shared about motorcycles, it is inevitably slanted toward the squid stereotype. Open piped hogs are often ******* about too, but they simply don't get the headlines that come from a horrific, high speed crash or incident that a sport bike can get.
Stupid riding....again, public perception seems to trump stats, but that is just the way it is. I drive commercially and could easily write a book about the stupid human tricks I see daily, but it is rarely that I could reference any measurable amount of motorcycles doing something stupid. Doesn't matter though, a group of SS riders having a crash on the 401 goes viral

People like me? As much as I'm sure you'd love to hang the albatross of solidarity around my neck, you've pretty much only succeeded in embarrassing yourself. Little children seem to need the affirmation of their peers to have the confidence in their convictions, and if you ever mature, you might see what I'm talking about. I don't recall ever indicating that I have never contributed to the "problem", nor can I recall bitching about the state of things as they are. I paid my high insurance premiums, have had plenty of unwanted attention based on my choices, and I made a decision to adjust things so that this hobby is very accessible to me without hassle. I see no reason to show "solidarity" with anyone who hasn't figured it out. It's actually pretty comical that you think people like me are why this industry can't gain leverage, lol.
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LePhillou said:
No intent on shooting you, youve got some very valid points.
The scene has changed, but the only people "adapting" to it is insurance companies.

Gov't could've evolved the graduated licensing system so that say, an m1 holder whose practical skills we haven't tested can't go get a litre bike. A profit based model as a regulator of who gets to ride what? Not the best way to regulate the moto population, because then even the rich douchekid will be able to afford one where as the careful commuter won't. We need a prevention model, not a bandaid model. A model where we try to mitigate risk so rates can stay lower for the general population

And that's the thing, even if you save up your pennies to buy a bike you can afford, you get cockblocked by an insurance price that is sometimes half of that amount you just dished out. Hell i've seen someone telling us how their klx250 went up by what was double if im not mistaken.
And that increase is accepted as something legal that can be done and nothing can be done about it other than place musical chair with insurers, until there are no chairs left that you can afford.

Now i can definitely see how the industry might not have as much motivation or pull as they used to... but there has to be something that can be done cause at some point we'll be pushed against the wall where insurance payment will be equal to bike purchase amount (*cue insurers laughing at us*)
We all know the gas guzzling vehicles will come to a dead end but in this climate, it seems alternatives to slow the process down are not an alternative.
Maybe our so-green government should look at limited gas consumption vehicles *wink wink*
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I can't say I'd disagree on the graduated license/bike size - back when I started in the 80's, insurance if I recall was much harder to find, and the big guys of the day (jevco I think?) sort of took care of that anyway. I was first quoted with stipulations of no SS bikes until I had 3 years experience, and there was some restriction about Harley's as well. As a side note, the crappiest, smallest bike I could find (under 500 cc) was still around $600 a year, minimum coverage, in a rural Northern township. Even with a clean record and over 25 years later, a sportbike is prohibitive for me to insure, but the two bikes I have in a much higher-rated region are very affordable. Insurance has always sucked, but the level of rape I get on a bike is still much less than a car.
 
Can people realllllllly say it was the same as it was back then?

There were a few guys that I used to work with in their mid 50s and they spoke about riding in their 20s and from what I've heard (obviously I have no proof to back up my claims) but insurance was practically nothing and there were hardly any rules. I mean, I know as society progresses and things get revised and whatnot things change but from what I've heard it's become a lot more costly to enjoy motorcycling, at least for supersports because my ninja250 has been pretty cheap to maintain overall including insurance. I'm looking for a 636 and it's not going to be fun insuring that thing.

All this is in regards to supersports I guess since they both had 1000cc sport bikes.
 
TiburonJA said:
Can people realllllllly say it was the same as it was back then?

There were a few guys that I used to work with in their mid 50s and they spoke about riding in their 20s and from what I've heard (obviously I have no proof to back up my claims) but insurance was practically nothing and there were hardly any rules. I mean, I know as society progresses and things get revised and whatnot things change but from what I've heard it's become a lot more costly to enjoy motorcycling, at least for supersports because my ninja250 has been pretty cheap to maintain overall including insurance. I'm looking for a 636 and it's not going to be fun insuring that thing.

All this is in regards to supersports I guess since they both had 1000cc sport bikes.
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I've heard stories of guys that would just keep renewing their motorcycle 365 (m1 / learner's permit) every year, for years on end.
I have to agree with @HappyCrappy and others about some points, especially the part about finding a bike that is affordable for insurance. We live in a very "I want it so I deserve it" society. Life owes you nothing. You make choices of what you want, and then you adjust accordingly to get it.
A kid at work wants a house, but says they are too expensive. I say " you're single, work a second job, save up, and buy something further away." He says " I shouldn't have to". Dude. Really? Maybe people don't understand sacrifice? This is all a game. Games have rules. Learn the rules, then learn to use them to your advantage. Just my two cents.

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Interestingly enough I listened to a conversation on talk radio last evening while driving to Lindsay. It was basically about a restaurant in a small town placing an ad for waitresses. The ad stated if you have facial tats and piercings, don't bother applying. One of the most prevalent opinions was "that is discriminatory", it shouldn't be permitted. The female host said no it is discriminatory, if they said no blacks can apply, because in that case the person didn't make a "concious decision" on their skin colour. However someone with tats, and piercings made the CHOICE to get them. With choices come consequences. In this case one of the consequences is this business owner doesn't want you to represent their brand.

We as riders, also make the CHOICE to ride, (for about 95% of us it truly is a CHOICE, as opposed to a NEED). Some as the other poster, WILL ride virtually 365, but the VAST majority are atbest "fair weather riders." With that choice comes the consequence of paying stupidly high insurance rates. The shops that have, or are closing in some cases may be due their business model or practices. Just because Eaton's and Zeller's and Target, have all closed in recent memory does that mean we are inching towards the death of retailing as well? In most cases replacement retailers, such as GP Bikes and Royal "appear" to be expanding and doing quite well. We also now have "niche" rider retailers, such as Regear. A few years ago when you were done with gear it was simply disgarded, now it is being repurposed.

So I don't think our hobby, as opposed to "sport" is inching towards it's death> it will simply reinvent itslef. I actually see the high insurance on bigger SS as a positive in that we will in coming years likely see a decrease in the number of fatalities and serious crashes by 20 year olds that are M1 riders with a 1000cc SS. In most areas of the world new riders begin on 125 - 300 cc bikes, Either due to economics or legislation. It is mainly a North American idealogy that says "I want it all and I want it NOW"

Hell when I first started to ride in the late 70's, I had a 500cc bike as a beginner, and yesI bought the "normal" (back then), 6 month policy. I didn't have collision as I paid less than $1,000 for the bike. But that bike wouldn't even hold it's own today against a modern 300cc bike..lol There were still rules back then, (you had to have insurance and you had to have a helmet. Riders were still, (mainly due to movies such as easy rider), viewed as "outlaws and rebels." Parents always tried to keep their teenaged daughters away from ANY guy with a bike..lol The main difference was that the rules were enforced fairly and equally. If you got stopped it was likely because you had done something stupid and people "generally" took responsibility for their actions and in the end said, "yep I deserved that." BUT then there was no s 172 etc. But as a copper back then I still had riders run from me when I lit them up. More often than not if they crashed they were injured but not dead, simply because the speeds were much lower and generally it was an inexperienced young rider who crashed pretty quickly.

So I don't think we are "inching towards the death" of riding it is merely evolving as it always has.
 
TiburonJA said:
Can people realllllllly say it was the same as it was back then?

There were a few guys that I used to work with in their mid 50s and they spoke about riding in their 20s and from what I've heard (obviously I have no proof to back up my claims) but insurance was practically nothing and there were hardly any rules.
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This. ^
I started riding in 1977. Rules around licensing and insurance in urban Ontario seemed to have been written for rural Manitoba at 2.5 vehicles per square mile. Then 4th wave feminism, political correctness, child car seats and domestic pets voting rights came into affect so now we have 1) Everybody who's anybody wants to protect us from ourselves 2)There's good money to be made from that 3)Children from broken homes ride 180hp and/or extreme loud pipes making a spectacle of themselves whereby upsetting the caged rat experience we all desire. 4)Women tend to the loose per internationally recognized m/c extravaganzas.
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