Registering an electric motorcycle project in Ontario | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Registering an electric motorcycle project in Ontario

The rolling chassis will likely be obtained from a salvage yard and restored. I would also like the option to sell and transfer ownership down the road. What is needed to register this project in Ontario for street riding? Searching online makes numerous references to VIN and clear "title". For motorcycles, is VIN part of the frame? What if I use a front end from another model bike? What is "title"? I understand I should get a UVIP first to check that the frame has no liens.

First number one objective, make sure the donor frame comes with a VIN and the appropriate paperwork and the VIN is not associated with "salvage", "scrap", or is in any way "branded". In Ontario once a VIN has a "brand" on it (i.e. "salvage") it is a one way trip, no vehicle with that VIN can ever be put back on the road. So this is what is meant by "clear title". Finding a chassis in a salvage yard which is "clear title" may be possible ... or the salvage yard owner may immediately change the ownership into their name but branded as "scrap" or some such thing, in which case you are screwed.

You can fix this by buying a normal bike the normal way from a normal person selling a used bike. Just make sure the registration has a clear title (not "branded"). This is a perfect opportunity for someone to sell you, and for you to buy, a bike with a blown engine. A blown engine doesn't affect the registration status.

The forks and front end and wheels etc are not part of the vehicle's association with a VIN. The frame is. And NOTHING else. From the point of view of VIN, the ownership status of the vehicle makes no difference if you swap forks, swingarm, wheels, etc. But insurance will probably care ...

Likewise, the engine is not part of the VIN status. You are essentially going to have something with an engine swap. Again, the MoT won't care, but insurance will almost certainly care.

Because you are carrying on with an original vehicle's VIN, you don't need to jump through Transport Canada hoops - only a regular safety inspection ... which could potentially be more diligent than usual given the drastic nature of your powertrain swap and chassis modifications. Lights have to work, horn has to work, reflectors have to be there, tires have to be good, steering head bearings have to be OK, etc. One way around this - if you bought a running bike - is to get the safety and licensing done BEFORE you do the engine swap; this will of course mean paying for the license plate and keeping it valid during the you do your build ...

There is a way to change the "fuel type" on your existing vehicle ownership to a different type (Gas - diesel - electric etc). This should not be a big problem with the direction you are going ("zero emissions"). It would be a problem going the other direction.

Your biggest obstacle by going this route is going to be getting (legitimate) insurance. Mark my words. Insurance companies don't like motorcycles with after-the-fact engine/powertrain swaps and/or (what they consider) heavy chassis modifications and/or (what they consider) significant power-adders.

Other "kit" vehicles etc that don't use an already-registered "donor vehicle" can be extremely problematic to register. I know someone who bought a Titan custom chopper "kit" from the USA, had it completely customized and painted, and was never able to register it in Canada. He had to ship it back to the States and sell it there. Transport Canada insisted on obtaining documentation of compliance to the last letter of every conceivable regulation that could possibly be applied and much of it was simply not available. American-sourced "kit" cars, Factory Five hot-rods and Cobra replicas etc are almost nonexistent on our roads because of how hard it is to jump through all of the obstacles that Transport Canada sets out.
 
What is the big concern with the VIN, other than if your using an existing frame that it not be classified with "salvage", "scrap", or is in any way "branded"

if whatever is being built, and if it don't pass Safety, no matter what, your not going to get it registered, no matter what VIN is used, pre-existing or your own

does the Safety not follow guidelines set out by the HTA and Transport Canada, so if something is a miss it will be caught by the Safety would it not ?
 
I would tend to agree with others that getting it certified isn't likely to be an insurmountable process.

Insurance, on the other hand, is likely going to be a challenge – legally you are required to inform them that the bike has been modified, and I suspect once you lay out the extent of the modifications many underwriters will not be interested in the business anymore given its a bike...and we know how insurance companies are skittish with bikes to begin with.

Now, if you want to play silly and not declare its modifications, sure you'll get insurance..but don't expect it to be bulletproof if you ever need it - they would be within their rights to disallow any claims based on your non disclosure.
 
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What is the big concern with the VIN, other than if your using an existing frame that it not be classified with "salvage", "scrap", or is in any way "branded"

if whatever is being built, and if it don't pass Safety, no matter what, your not going to get it registered, no matter what VIN is used, pre-existing or your own

does the Safety not follow guidelines set out by the HTA and Transport Canada, so if something is a miss it will be caught by the Safety would it not ?

I think the safety checks for things like working headlights, I don't think they check to see if it complies with standard CMVAxxxxx that was applicable at the time the VIN was registered. Someone recently posted the manual that details what is actually supposed to be checked (in the thread about upcoming changes like clamping down on POS HID conversions).

Have you registered your own motor vehicle VIN? Trailers are simple and a whole different ball game than a motor vehicle (hell, on a home-built trailer they don't need a safety, how dumb is that?). To register a car with a factory-issued VIN with less characters (13 IIRC instead of the 17 currently used) was simple at the MTO and a nightmare for insurance. They wouldn't even give me a quote without a formal appraisal.
 
The concern about the VIN is if he is using a "donor froame, and VIN" then he wll likely be ok. But you seem to think it is as simple as making up a vin and MTO will just accept it, Again trailers are a WHOLE different kettle of fish. a hime made trailer doesn't even require a vin to get registered. People are just trying to open the OP's eyes to the "potential issues."

He asked what he would need to do and people are advising him. Best he know BEFORE he starts the project and can research it for himself throughly so he can make an informed decision on if the "potential" red tape and costs are worth it BEFORE he begins to outlay cash. Better to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed in advance, (well as many as he can have, things like the safety can be prepared or done in advance).

We don't know because he hasn't said if he plans to use a donor frame and VIN. IF he were to decide to do it all "from scratch" including frame fabrication, then he NEEDS to know for example the regs on the positioning and distances of signals etc. To simply say "go ahead bulid it, slap your own VIN on it and HOPE you pass safety" is not solid advice, (IMHO), given by that point he may be into thousands, (if not tens of thousnads depending upon how elaborate and custom the bike will be).

If he calls several insurers and they all say "hell no we aren't insuring that" then why would he go ahead with the project? Unless he has unlimited funds and is hoping to take it to a track and then have it as his "show piece" to demonstarte what is possible. But if he wants a street legal bike then that is a different ball of wax. People are just giving him good solid advice, (with the limited amount of info he has provided), only he can decide how he wants to proceed.

As correctly pointed out a safety is just to confirm that items which must be present are present and that they operate the way they are supposed to. It does NOT mean the bike is safe, (in terms of fabrication etc). It also does NOT mean it meets all the requirements as set out by Transport Canada. Meaning, if it gets registered, and he gets pulled over by an inspector he could face penalties, (fines, and even siezure of the plates etc). This isn't a high risk possibility but the OP needs to do his due deligence to avoid this and also to make sure he and his bike are safe on the road.

What is the big concern with the VIN, other than if your using an existing frame that it not be classified with "salvage", "scrap", or is in any way "branded"

if whatever is being built, and if it don't pass Safety, no matter what, your not going to get it registered, no matter what VIN is used, pre-existing or your own

does the Safety not follow guidelines set out by the HTA and Transport Canada, so if something is a miss it will be caught by the Safety would it not ?
 
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The short answer is that it is virtually impossible to jump through all of the hurdles that the Ministry of Transportation, Transport Canada, and the insurance companies will put in front of you.

Most "home-built", "custom", "kit" vehicles etc assume the identity, VIN, registration paperwork, etc of a "donor vehicle", preferably one that pre-dates the existence of federal motor vehicle safety and emission standards (1960s - 1990s depending on what sorts of issues that you are talking about). This is not necessarily to imply that this is fully and unquestionably "legal", it is purely a means of placating the regulatory authorities (essentially by pulling the wool over their eyes) and satisfying the paperwork (which is pretty much all tied to the VIN).
Not gonna lie...I did not read all replies.
I think something to remember is that all vehicles in production are ENGINEERED to specific safety regulations. There are a lot of forces that come into play while a vehicle is cruising down the road. Nobody wants a vehicle on the road that some farmer has decided is road worthy...just because he had a vision :)
Not calling the OP a farmer, I am talking about any other project manager that rigs up a cool toy to rip around on. Get it stamped by an engineer...safety test it...destructive test it...etc...etc.
Just my $.02

PS If he does use a doner VIN to get it on the road and insured. It is irrelevant as that VIN is not the vehicle being described. As soon as an adjuster shows up to value the claim, he will say...SORRY THIS IS FRAUDULANT REPRESENTATION...this is modified from the original vehicle that this VIN belongs too. No $$$ for you.
 
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Now that the subject of chassis engineering has come up ... A good many bikes built in the last few decades rely on the engine to contribute to the stiffness of the chassis. There are some - notably, Honda CBR929/954 but I'm sure there are others - in which the swingarm pivot is essentially built into the crankcases. There are others - notably, any Ducati of the "Panigale" generation - in which the "frame" merely serves to connect the engine to the steering head, and the engine basically "is" the structure of the bike.
 
I can possibly help with a cheap donor for this.
I am looking at buying a used 600cc early 90's roadworthy sportbike.
I need the engine and wiring, & fuel tank. I do not need the chassis or the fairings or lights.
 
Is the Hyo 250 a suitable donor bike for this? Every year another ones turns up with a blown engine. It should be easy/cheap to pick up spare bikes that your drivetrain fits in. Hell, sell the kits to hyo riders to finance the hell you will go through trying to get the first one legally on the road. With the kit include the details that will help other people (e.g. which MTO office, which insurance company/agent, etc.)

Has clutch ever returned to this thread? If they do, just for interest what are you goals for this project? e.g. range, obscenely fast or just something to putt around on, does this have to be licensed for the street or can it be a track toy, are you planning on creating the controls yourself or are you planning on buying a pre-engineered system?

For the track people, what would be required to take an electric bike on the track? Have any of the local organizations created a tech inspection protocol for electric bikes?
 
AFAIK none of the rule books for any local roadracing or track day org acknowledge the possibility of electric propulsion. Obviously oil containment is less of an issue but high voltage with lots of power behind it is a new issue. There are "Formula E" classes elsewhere, no doubt with their own set of rules.
 
Funny: it wasn't that long ago that the HTA required every vehicle to have a muffler. When I was in university one project was the solar car. Since this was driven on public roads, it had to have a muffler! They carried a rusted out muffler from a garden tractor with them. It wasn't connected to anything but it had to be there! "Thou shalt..." okay, here you go!
 
Funny: it wasn't that long ago that the HTA required every vehicle to have a muffler. When I was in university one project was the solar car. Since this was driven on public roads, it had to have a muffler! They carried a rusted out muffler from a garden tractor with them. It wasn't connected to anything but it had to be there! "Thou shalt..." okay, here you go!
That's ridiculous.... To be so stringent to the rules

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I've been dreaming about an electric motorcycle project for a while. The rolling chassis will likely be obtained from a salvage yard and restored. I would also like the option to sell and transfer ownership down the road. What is needed to register this project in Ontario for street riding? Searching online makes numerous references to VIN and clear "title". For motorcycles, is VIN part of the frame? What if I use a front end from another model bike? What is "title"? I understand I should get a UVIP first to check that the frame has no liens.

I couldn't find much information out there for this particular case. I'd appreciate any links to point me in the right direction or any other considerations I may have missed. Thanks!

Why not call the MTO and or go to one of their offices, to get the answer directly from them....

But I will save you a bit of time

I called them, took all of 10 minutes and got most of the info, but please do call them yourself and verify, or drop into one of their offices...

What ever you build must pass Safety, if you don't have that the rest is a moot point.....

you will need an Affidavit of how the bike was built, your full name, address, and anything else you can include to show this was done by you....

bring in bill of sale for any and all parts you might have purchased, ie, headlight, turn signals, shocks, rims, tires, handlebar, and so on, it just show you purchased something to make something and it was not already on the bike

Now with the Safety and Affidavit and your bills of sale, you go to MTO and register the bike, once verified they will assign you a VIN, or as with a home made trailer they might even allow you to make up your own, or bring in a vin plate you created with the number and they will register it, give you ownership and plates if you have insurance, no insurance no plates, but this you know....

if by chance you are using an existing frame, all the same above but the bike will be registered as rebuilt and changes made to reflect as to what it is now, easier to take an existing frame grind off the VIN and make up your own, if your not building the frame from scratch, but it would be about the same since you will not use the existing VIN from the frame you will modify...

anyways, this is what I was able to find out in a short time, do call and ask them for yourself, to make sure I did not miss anything or the lady I spoke with didn't as well

good luck on your project....



The link in the other posts and what it says is more or less of what I was just told, just with more detail........:D

OP you asked what you need to register your project in Ontario, this is from your opening post

and in my post quoted above, I called the MTO and in short form gave you what they told me and what will be required to get the project registered

now how you get there, be it with an old frame and existing VIN, or a newly built frame and your own VIN or one created by the MTO, or your just going to grab your own bike throw in an electric motor, no matter what route you take you will need to get a Safety Certificate, because without that you will not get the project registered

and that is what you asked, and that is what I answered

Now for all the other statements made in this thread, well follow what you will, but if your signal lights are not at the right spacing, or your brakes don't work, or the frame is not good, or anything else that the mechanic doing the safety finds wrong it will not pass safety, as that is what the mechanic is looking for, and his guidelines are outlined by Transport Canada, HTA and so on, so if it don't meet the code it don't pass and OP will be SOL......

If you build a piece of crap, well good luck in getting it registered, I was presuming that the OP would know something about what he is after and if he decides to not follow guidelines and decides to put the headlight on the back end of the bike and the tail light on the front, and have crappy welds, and bald tires and so on, well he should not even bother asking on how to register a project, but rather on how to properly build one first

Best of luck on your project

I am out of this thread.....
 
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Thanks for all the useful info! So it sounds like registration is not (a big) issue if I use a donor bike with proper ownership and clear title. The insurance on the other hand...I'll have to follow up on before starting the project. I'll update this thread with insurance info if people are interested. I mean the insurance has to be reasonable for the project to be worth it...

I can possibly help with a cheap donor for this.
I am looking at buying a used 600cc early 90's roadworthy sportbike.
I need the engine and wiring, & fuel tank. I do not need the chassis or the fairings or lights.

Thanks for the offer! But it's pretty early for me. I'm still planning, at this point it's just a pipe dream. First is to make sure it's even legal (and reasonable insurance-wise). Then cost out the build and see if it makes sense.

Has clutch ever returned to this thread? If they do, just for interest what are you goals for this project? e.g. range, obscenely fast or just something to putt around on, does this have to be licensed for the street or can it be a track toy, are you planning on creating the controls yourself or are you planning on buying a pre-engineered system?

Well ideally I'd like something comparable to my beloved SV. It will be just for the street. But once I cost the build then I'm sure reality will sink in, batteries will be a major part of the cost :) Slightly off topic but in case you're all interested, there's been some great reviews about cost and performance of these lithium iron batteries from china:
http://en.calb.cn

It's pretty sketchy, they ask for a wire transfer and you get your batteries in a couple of months :D But checking out the reviews, they are very responsive and people seem to be happy with it <shrug>



 
Thanks Clutch for the update. Yes I would recommend going with a donor frame, it will lessen the amount of research. If you build a frame then you would need to get in touch with Transport Canada for all the specs, (distances between front signals and head light, yes that is actually regulated)..lol
With a donor frame that stuff is already positioned... Yes please do post your progress if you decide to go ahead. Cost is always a big factor a couple of years ago I considered having the engine completely rebuilt on a 91 750 intruder. But the cost made it clear it was time for a new bike..lol

Thanks for all the useful info! So it sounds like registration is not (a big) issue if I use a donor bike with proper ownership and clear title. The insurance on the other hand...I'll have to follow up on before starting the project. I'll update this thread with insurance info if people are interested. I mean the insurance has to be reasonable for the project to be worth it...



Thanks for the offer! But it's pretty early for me. I'm still planning, at this point it's just a pipe dream. First is to make sure it's even legal (and reasonable insurance-wise). Then cost out the build and see if it makes sense.



Well ideally I'd like something comparable to my beloved SV. It will be just for the street. But once I cost the build then I'm sure reality will sink in, batteries will be a major part of the cost :) Slightly off topic but in case you're all interested, there's been some great reviews about cost and performance of these lithium iron batteries from china:
http://en.calb.cn

It's pretty sketchy, they ask for a wire transfer and you get your batteries in a couple of months :D But checking out the reviews, they are very responsive and people seem to be happy with it <shrug>





</shrug>
 
wondered about those scooter type bikes i was seeing on roads or sidewalks, ended up talking to one, said;

~ electric bat driven, didn't ask about registration but no insurance even required, cos

bike had pedals (not even sure if they worked) so was considered a [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]bicycle[/FONT]
 
e-bikes are a whole different ball game with their own set of rules (or lack thereof). Regardless of its (lack of) licensing or insurance requirements, the vehicle itself still has CMVSS compliance documentation from its original manufacturer. It's just as near-impossible to legally produce that yourself as it is for any other vehicle.
 
I think it's only a matter of time before E-Bikes and powered bikes (gas ones are becoming more popular) are licenced in some fashion. Too many of them on the roads now and as Brian touched on it seems like a virtual free for all out there.
 

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