If no dislosure is recieved can I be reimbursed costs to attend a trial? | GTAMotorcycle.com

If no dislosure is recieved can I be reimbursed costs to attend a trial?

leedufour

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Ticket in Cornwall. I will take the day off work plus mileage. I haven't received what was requested in the disclosure request.
I expect the case to be thrown out but if I go directly to the trial rather than speaking to the Prosecution pre trial will the Judge allow me to present my costs and possibly be reimbursed?
 
On top of no to reimbursing expenses, don't count on an automatic dismissal. It may happen, but not necessarily.

The JP may also either rule that the disclosure you received was adequate, and/or that the disclosure that you requested but did not receive was not relevant. The JP may also adjourn your trial to a later date, or alternately adjourn until later in the day and instruct the cop who issued the ticket to give you disclosure verbal outside the court room.
 
Just went through this a few weeks ago. Got a ticket, requested disclosure. Didn't receive.

Went to court and stated that I'm still waiting for my disclosure and showed proof that I sent it to them on such and such date. Court adjourned. New court date in 2015.

No reimbursement.
 
On top of no to reimbursing expenses, don't count on an automatic dismissal. It may happen, but not necessarily.

The JP may also either rule that the disclosure you received was adequate, and/or that the disclosure that you requested but did not receive was not relevant. The JP may also adjourn your trial to a later date, or alternately adjourn until later in the day and instruct the cop who issued the ticket to give you disclosure verbal outside the court room.

Is there anything you can do in that case, to make sure the trial is adjourned? 30 minutes to one hour is not enough time to prepare for a trial, especially to an amateur.
 
Is there anything you can do in that case, to make sure the trial is adjourned? 30 minutes to one hour is not enough time to prepare for a trial, especially to an amateur.

Sure. You can ask for an adjournment to a later date. You asking for it though hurts your chance at an 11b.
 
Is there anything you can do in that case, to make sure the trial is adjourned? 30 minutes to one hour is not enough time to prepare for a trial, especially to an amateur.

The JP asking the cop to give you a verbal disclosure outside the courtroom... sounds like non-sense.
 
Sure. You can ask for an adjournment to a later date. You asking for it though hurts your chance at an 11b.

How can it hurt their chance at an 11b? The OP didn't get disclosure in due course and is going through the proper channels. I don't think it's likely to have any effect. Just shows inefficiency of the process by the prosecutor.

I've requested my disclosure in person in front of the JP 3 weeks ago. Still nothing. If it doesn't come then I go back in January and state that I'm still waiting.
 
How can it hurt their chance at an 11b? The OP didn't get disclosure in due course and is going through the proper channels. I don't think it's likely to have any effect. Just shows inefficiency of the process by the prosecutor.

I've requested my disclosure in person in front of the JP 3 weeks ago. Still nothing. If it doesn't come then I go back in January and state that I'm still waiting.

If the JP at trial forms the opinion that the disclosure deficiency is minimal, would have little or no impact on the ability to mount a defence, and can be settled verbally during a brief adjournment, but the accused insists on a longer adjournment to another date, it then becomes an adjournment at the request of the accused. The ruling on an 11b application would take the original JP's opinion on disclosure sufficiency and remedy into account.
 
How can it hurt their chance at an 11b? The OP didn't get disclosure in due course and is going through the proper channels. I don't think it's likely to have any effect. Just shows inefficiency of the process by the prosecutor.

Oh it can. They (JP and prostitutor) will use your lack of knowledge (or confidence in that knowledge) of the system against you. In trial, they will ask you about your disclosure requests and phrase them in double-negatives in such a way to get you to utter the word "yes." They will then use that against you to deny your 11b, citing the request to delay was yours, because you weren't prepared, not them. If they don't do that to you, it's because they somehow don't think they can get away with it. But make no mistake, they will bully whomever they think they can; getting you to not fully exercise your rights.

So I then called a law firm who handles DUIs and 172s to handle the rescheduled trial. The paralegal who actually handled my case (very minor compared to what they usually deal with,) filed the 11b and it was denied. The reason being the disclosure request was not made within enough time; citing the two weeks prior to trail date of my THIRD request as being THE date of request. The fax record of my disclosure requests dated back at least 10 weeks and included THREE requests, but because I had answered "yes" to the question (at trial) "is this the disclosure you requested," and the JP ruled it was too late, it was too late. I even corrected her at trial and clarified the original request dates. This is all in the transcript filed with the 11b, and the 11b was still denied... because the disclosure requests were my fault, and the delay at the first trial on ME, not them. My paralegal couldn't believe it and said that was 'even a new one for her.'

At my second appearance, walking in behind my representative, things took on a different 'tone.' She took on questions from other paralegals representing a whole stack full of clients; like 'why she was slumming down here,' and were 'things slow in the real courtrooms.' My case didn't get called until after all the easy guilty pleas / reductions were done; and when called, the JP threw my case out like a Carly Rae Jepsen first pitch at a Ray's game.

Other riders here have reported either seeing it or having experienced it themselves happen in past.

Yes indeed. It was even phrased to me by the JP, "go see (officer's name) outside, and he'll let you see his notes. He's a good guy."

Bottom line is ... if they think they can bully you, they will. If you let them, they will. I can't pull off the demeanor that thugs and bullies like cops and JPs respect. But you can't get angry at the system and win. So you hire a bigger bully. Considering fine and insurance, it's cheap.
 
Laws regarding disclosure are pretty clear. JP's opinion won't matter if it goes against those laws/rules.

http://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/pub/fpsd-sfpg/fps-sfp/tpd/p2/ch05.html

Well, the document you provided pertains to federal prosecutions which is a much different ballpark. Their introductory mission statement:
The PPSC is responsible for prosecuting offences under more than 40 federal statutes and for providing prosecution-related legal advice to law enforcement agencies. Cases prosecuted by the PPSC include those involving drugs, organized crime, terrorism, tax law, money laundering and proceeds of crime, crimes against humanity and war crimes, Criminal Code offences in the territories, and a large number of federal regulatory offences.​

In a federal prosecution, disclosure is provided whether asked for or not. Even there though, there is discretion allowed for in what may disclosed or not.
"Crown counsel shall, as soon as reasonably practicable,Footnote11 provide disclosure. In most cases, this will mean that the defence will be given at least the following, subject to editing for statutory or common law privilege or a determination by Crown counsel that the information is irrelevant:Footnote12"

In provincial offences prosecutions, the accused must request disclosure. The prosecutor provides what they have, and can decide whether or not something requested is available or even relevant. The JP can certainly decide if disclosure provided by the prosecutor is adequate, or if deficiencies in same can be remedied without adjourning to a later date.
 
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Oops... yes, that is federal. For provincial... yes, defendant must request disclosure.

Laws for provincial are just as clear.
 
Other riders here have reported either seeing it or having experienced it themselves happen in past.

verbal disclosure? that sounds like some mickey mouse court. how is that possible in a real court? i guess ill have to get a lawyer for my first speeding ticket.
 
verbal disclosure? that sounds like some mickey mouse court. how is that possible in a real court? i guess ill have to get a lawyer for my first speeding ticket.

Disclosure is disclosure - how you get it isn't really of particular interest to the court. Should you have received it by now? Yes, absolutely...but as long as you GET it that's what matters.

A judge in a bad mood might toss your case out and tell the officer to get his crap together.

A judge who is willing to let that slip might very well, as mentioned, suggest you step out and talk to the officer at that point and offer an adjournment at best...at which point you'll likely have to take another day off work at a later date to try again.

And don't hire a lawyer - a traffic ticket specialist paralegal is much cheaper and will be equally as capable.
 
Disclosure is disclosure - how you get it isn't really of particular interest to the court. Should you have received it by now? Yes, absolutely...but as long as you GET it that's what matters.

A judge in a bad mood might toss your case out and tell the officer to get his crap together.

A judge who is willing to let that slip might very well, as mentioned, suggest you step out and talk to the officer at that point and offer an adjournment at best...at which point you'll likely have to take another day off work at a later date to try again.

And don't hire a lawyer - a traffic ticket specialist paralegal is much cheaper and will be equally as capable.

'Verbal disclosure' is not disclosure.

Disclosure
Anyone charged with an offence is entitled to receive, free of charge, all the information in the prosecutor’s possession or control that is relevant to the charge. This could include: investigating officer notes, witness statements, diagrams, and photographs. This information is called “disclosure” and you must ask for it in order to get it. This request may have to be made in writing. Contact the court office shown on your ticket or summons
as soon as possible to find out how to receive the disclosure materials for your case.

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/files/guides/guide-provincial-offences.pdf
 

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