Supernam
Well-known member
I wouldn't call 110 slow, totally justifiable in the middle lane. It is those that drive below the speed limit and those that drive way above that contributes to the congestion.
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Drivers who hog middle lane are the real problem
- Thread starter I82l8
- Start date
According to Jim Kenzie, any one remember Jim Kenzie?, only an idiot would drive slower than you, and anyone that wants to drive faster than you is an a**hole, soooooooooo, drive with the idiots on your right, the a**holes on your left. Everyone's happy.
Ahhhhhhhhh
The wisdom of Jim Kenzie.
Ahhhhhhhhh
The wisdom of Jim Kenzie.
He is still recording rants for Motoring on TSN. I see him recording in and around my neighbourhood all the time.
defeater905
Well-known member
I disagree, tailgaters are what causes the congestion. If everyone was driving along with the minimum 2 seconds in between cars it wouldn't matter much if some dolt is driving slow in the middle lane because you have room to go around. Tailgating grinds my gears especially when I'm on two wheels.
Supernam
Well-known member
How would tailgating cause congestion? Accidents from tailgating maybe, not the actual tailgating.
Actually I have. I drove heavy stuff until tinnitus got to me many years ago. Since then deregulation has turned trucking into a free for all.
I specifically said "No disrespect to the truckers but the solution has to include vehicles that have limiters and ones that can't maintain speed on grades."
That doesn't mean trucks should be banned but their capabilities have to be taken into consideration when looking for solutions. If you do your modeling based on only cars the result will be a mess when trucks are introduced.
Every morning 427 north collectors are a mess because heavies can't maintain highway speeds but need to get into the core lanes for the 401/427 further north. An intelligent traffic engineer might have been able to make something work.
defeater905
Well-known member
Many reasons really. If you are following too closely and the car in front of you slows, you need to brake. So when everyone is following too closely (which is basically everyone on the 400 series hwys during busy times) they are all braking. You ever drive on the hwy and the traffic comes to a complete stop to then get going again and you're wondering why? That's why. I see this exact thing on the qew Niagara heading east right before the skyway bridge. If we ALL kept a good distance traffic would keep moving. If people are driving slow in the middle lane, yet everyone is leaving ample space getting around the slow cars isn't an issue.
References please? I remember reading lots of things to the contrary, and many MANY years of running plenty of highway miles through the dead of many nights when the majority of traffic is heavy trucks (with very few cars) screams the exact opposite to me. Us guys know how to keep traffic flowing because it's in the best interest of most when getting paid by the mile. It only takes ONE car driver who does a complete dumbass move (the famous "merge onto the 401 at 30KPH, don't bother accelerating" maneuver is my personal favorite) to totally destroy traffic flow. Almost every traffic jam is caused by ONE car driver doing ONE idiotic move and then the accordion effect (mentioned above, yes, google it) takes over and screws it up for a long time afterwards.
... but why are they tailgating?
Frequently, because there is a person oblivious to their surroundings puttering along in the center lane in the belief that this means they don't have to think about merging traffic and never have to check their mirrors.
No problem if someone wants to stay in the center lane, but keep up the pace, and if the pace is too fast, go to the right!
For heavy trucks, the center lane is their passing lane, although the speed limiters messed that up and now they can't overtake.
In Toronto, frequently the traffic volume is such that there is more than a vehicle every two seconds, which makes maintaining that distance impossible. If someone tries to, it is only by slowing down ... and then the ripple effect starts, because everyone behind them now has to slow down.
It would be nice if trucks would stay to the right but I can understand why they often don't ... because it means they would have to change lanes to allow someone else to properly merge at a junction, and when the drivers in the next lane don't let them do the lane change, then there's a problem, and if the drivers merging don't get up to speed then the truck would have to slow down to avoid a collision, and it then takes forever for them to speed up again (and the ripple effect starts again).
Stupidity/obliviousness is at the root of this, but fixing that ... is a challenge.
Would you have been happier if I had said if you did your modeling with trucks it would be a mess when cars were introduced?
One of the main factors that has to be addressed is the pathetic driving attitude of most cagers. You can write laws until you get writer's cramp but it will have no effect until cagers learn and USE the laws of the road and the laws of physics (You can't stop a Mack like a Miata). Right now they get the occasional "Give trucks room" warning.
IMO There have been no positive significant changes in traffic control in 50 years. There have been significant negative changes in pressure and attitudes. Time to think outside the box. Tweaking won't cut it anymore.
Iceman
Well-known member
I agree. As a heavy truck driver I see this every day.
Speed limiters: Where else are they mandatory? While there is a knee jerk reaction of saving the children it's usually soccer mom doing a dumbazz lane change that causes the crashes. "Wow Mildred, You should have seen the crash behind me just as I was squeezing in front of that dangerous truck. It was really tight. I had to slam on my brakes as soon as I slipped in."
Just curious about what percentage of the trucks on the GTA section of the 401 are going straight through. If it was a significant percentage what would happen if they were given the HOV lane treatment and cages had to keep right?
Just curious about what percentage of the trucks on the GTA section of the 401 are going straight through. If it was a significant percentage what would happen if they were given the HOV lane treatment and cages had to keep right?
I82l8
Well-known member
In Europe trucks must have a running tachograph. Registering their speed, time driving, etc.
As well as lower speed limits in most countries.
So.... how do i gauge which lane is going faster on the hwy when commuting? The lane that has the most gaps in it. As it's the one that will have the most constant flow and the least stop and go.
And that's one of the reasons the left lane isnt always the fastest...because left laners are in a rush and will have a higher rate of tailgaters. I often see the middle lane hoggers actually go faster than the left and the right lane that has the heavy trucks go even faster because trucks try to stay at same speed and kinda impose an artifical cruise control/speed buffer.
Outside of rush hours, on a bike, middle lane hogs are irrelevant to me as (safe) lanes changes are a lot easier to do on a bike which just kinda makes them "in the way" but doesn't make them a hinderance to my A to B
And that's one of the reasons the left lane isnt always the fastest...because left laners are in a rush and will have a higher rate of tailgaters. I often see the middle lane hoggers actually go faster than the left and the right lane that has the heavy trucks go even faster because trucks try to stay at same speed and kinda impose an artifical cruise control/speed buffer.
Outside of rush hours, on a bike, middle lane hogs are irrelevant to me as (safe) lanes changes are a lot easier to do on a bike which just kinda makes them "in the way" but doesn't make them a hinderance to my A to B
The ever encompassing "safety" excuse, as well as for supposed environmental reasons..which made sense in 2008 when trucks were vastly dirtier than they are today, but would be tough to justify by todays emissions standards. There was much debate on it (and a lot of disagreement and good questions about it's legitimacy) when it happened, but it was rammed through by the Ontario government and became law. A lot of people argued that if trucks (statistically the safest vehicles on the road) were going to be subject to it, why busses and cars (statistically the worst vehicles on the road from a safety perspective, with the worse drivers behind the wheel) were not subject to it. It still seems dumb to me.
That said, for what it was worth, a lot of companies already ran limiters long before this law ever existed, including every major fleet I've ever drove for in nearly 20 years in the industry. Fuel costs and insurance savings are the primary reasons. It was owner operators who had the biggest issue with it, but at least the playing field is leveled now where nobody can get an upper leg by just driving like a bat out of hell.
Roadghost
Well-known member
It is not possible to use the right hand lane consistently on Ontario highways. There are merges every kilometer on the 401 on average with tons of cars spilling onto the highway at each ramp. You have to move out of their way or slow down or the idiots will hit you. Add to that the inconsistent way the right lanes are designed, either forcing drivers to the off-ramp or outright disappearing the result is chaos. Ontario's highway design standards are the pits.
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