What discretionary powers does an Ontario Minister have ? (MTO expired D.L.) | GTAMotorcycle.com

What discretionary powers does an Ontario Minister have ? (MTO expired D.L.)

M

mstram

Well-known member
For those of you knowledgeable about our legal / government system :

What (if any) discretionary powers does an Ontario Minister have to grant an exemption / exception for a particular legislation ?

If none, what other legal process, if any, are available?

Private Members Bill ? (Remotely possible, but highly unlikely / realistic)

Specifically, I'm dealing with my 12 year old expired Driver's License.

I'm pretty much (almost) conceding to the "system", but out of curiosity, and "last ditch hope", I'm researching, what if anything I can do to avoid the waiting periods between the G1 / G2 / tests, and
proceed directly to the G2-exit, since I have 30+ years of driving experience.

I contacted my MPP (Monte Kwinter), who contacted MTO, but it looks like Kwinter's office didn't do anything "special", that I couldn't have done(i.e contacting the MTO Minister's office).
 
Well firstly, this wouldn't be covered under a private members bill, (unless your hope was to have the legislation written differently, they wouldn't entertain a private members bill for a single exemption, plus the criteria for a private members bill is VERY high).

The minister would have discretion to waive the requirements, BUT you would need a VERY VERY VERY VERY compelling reason, (like you were in a coma...lol), as to why you should be exempted from meeting the same requirements as any other driver in the same position. Any driver whose licence lapses in Ontario for more than 10 years must go through the G1,G2, G licencing system.

I had a friend who had not held a licence for 10 years and 3 months, (it was a few years ago but if I recall correctly), he was permitted to do the various tests but without the required waiting periods. He too his G1 road test in St Catherines one day and the next day drove to Aurora where he took his G2 road test and he had his new G licence. So ask at the ministry office, (and don't get just the answer from one person ask to speak to a supervisor and get their reply as well, not every employee will now the actual requirements)
mstram said:
For those of you knowledgeable about our legal / government system :

What (if any) discretionary powers does an Ontario Minister have to grant an exemption / exception for a particular legislation ?

If none, what other legal process, if any, are available?

Private Members Bill ? (Remotely possible, but highly unlikely / realistic)

Specifically, I'm dealing with my 12 year old expired Driver's License.

I'm pretty much (almost) conceding to the "system", but out of curiosity, and "last ditch hope", I'm researching, what if anything I can do to avoid the waiting periods between the G1 / G2 / tests, and
proceed directly to the G2-exit, since I have 30+ years of driving experience.

I contacted my MPP (Monte Kwinter), who contacted MTO, but it looks like Kwinter's office didn't do anything "special", that I couldn't have done(i.e contacting the MTO Minister's office).
Click to expand...
 
A bit of a side note but if anyone is thinking of getting rid of all of their vehicles and not being listed on any insurance policy try to get listed as an occasional driver on someone else's policy (Hopefully at no cost). That way you have uninterrupted coverage and no "New driver: hit when you get around to owning again.
 
hedo2002 said:
The minister would have discretion to waive the requirements, BUT you would need a VERY VERY VERY VERY compelling reason, (like you were in a coma...lol), as to why you should be exempted from meeting the same requirements as any other driver in the same position.
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Not that I don't believe you, but I'm interested in knowing where "it is written" that the "minister would have discretion". I've googled it, and haven't found anything. Do you have any info / links etc ?

As for "very very compelling reason", again what is your source of info ? (experience with prior cases ?

My "compelling reason" is that the legislation looks like it was never written to cover the (never-would-probably-happen of someone dumb enough NOT to renew their license -who-had-30+-years of driving experience) :)

hedo2002 said:
I had a friend who had not held a licence for 10 years and 3 months, (it was a few years ago but if I recall correctly), he was permitted to do the various tests but without the required waiting periods. So ask at the ministry office, (and don't get just the answer from one person ask to speak to a supervisor and get their reply as well, not every employee will now the actual requirements)
Click to expand...

What were your friends circumstances ?

As for a "supervisor", I got a direct reply from Pat Roberts / Senior Customer Service Liaison / Ministry of Transportation.
I don't know how high up "the food chain" she ? (patti) is.
 
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https://www.ontario.ca/page/reinstate-suspended-drivers-licence

10+ years suspended: you need to re-apply as a new driver and re-take all required tests. You cannot fast-track and need to serve all mandatory waiting periods.​

http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08

“Minister” means the Minister of Transportation; (“ministre”)​

Ontario Regulation 340/94 - Driver's Licenses

(6) An applicant for a driver’s licence who was previously licensed in Ontario more than three years but less than ten years before the time of application and provides evidence satisfactory to the Minister of that fact shall be classed as a novice driver but shall be exempt from the prescribed time limits on eligibility to take the level 1 and 2 exit tests. O. Reg. 340/94, s. 29 (6).​

Ontario Regulation 341/94 - Driver License Examinations

3. (1) An applicant for a Class D, G or M driver’s licence who meets all other qualifications for the issuing of such a licence may be issued a new licence,
(a) without taking the applicable examinations under sections 15, 17 and 18 of Ontario Regulation 340/94 if he or she held a licence issued under the Act that expired within one year of the making of the application; or
(b) without taking the applicable examinations under section 15 of Ontario Regulation 340/94 if he or she held a licence issued under the Act that expired between one and three years before the making of the application. O. Reg. 341/94, s. 3 (1)​
.​

I'm not seeing the full picture here. From what i'm gathering here; you basically did not know your license was expired for over 12 years?

Private Member Bill to amend the Highway Traffic Act to include drivers who forgot to renew for 10 years? "Minister" would be Steven Del Luca, you could visit him at his Vaughan office and make your case. I would skip your local MPP and go directly to the minister.

Be weary that you're going to tell the MTO and government officials you were illegally driving vehicles in Ontario with an expired license. Didn't your insurance company check at all? Have you ever been asked for your driver's license, and nobody bothered to check the expiry date? Rental Car?

"I forgot" is not a valid legal defence in provincial court, if you were stopped with an expired license.

I agree if you were in a coma, prisoner of war, incarcerated, institutionalized; something extraordinary happened to you. But I think that explanation could be made at the DriveTest.
 
iFly55 said:
I'm not seeing the full picture here. From what i'm gathering here; you basically did not know your license was expired for over 12 years?
Click to expand...

How did you manage to "gather" that ? :confused:

Where did I write "I didn't know my license was expired" ?

Where did I write my license was suspended ? It was just expired.

iFly55 said:
Private Member Bill to amend the Highway Traffic Act to include drivers who forgot to renew for 10 years?

"Minister" would be Steven Del Luca, you could visit him at his Vaughan office and make your case. I would skip your local MPP and go directly to the minister.
Click to expand...

No, the bill would be to include relevant driving experience when deciding expired license "penalties" / conditions.

iFly55 said:
Be weary that you're going to tell the MTO and government officials you were illegally driving vehicles in Ontario with an expired license. Didn't your insurance company check at all? Have you ever been asked for your driver's license, and nobody bothered to check the expiry date? Rental Car?

"I forgot" is not a valid legal defence in provincial court, if you were stopped with an expired license.
Click to expand...

Where did I write I have been driving with an expired license ? (I have not been driving period !)

Ever heard of public transit ? It IS possible to travel around the GTA without a car :rolleyes:
 
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mstram said:
My "compelling reason" is that the legislation looks like it was never written to cover the (never-would-probably-happen of someone dumb enough NOT to renew their license -who-had-30+-years of driving experience)
Click to expand...
Admittedly, I made the wrong assumption that you were unknowingly driving with an expired license. I was connecting the wrong dots between your original and subsequent posts.
 
mstram said:
Not that I don't believe you, but I'm interested in knowing where "it is written" that the "minister would have discretion". I've googled it, and haven't found anything. Do you have any info / links etc ?

It is fact of law ALL ministers, (provinical and federal), have discretionary powers, in "special circumstance occurences" Just like when the media shines the spot light on some poor sould not getting treated for a medical condition, the Minister of Helath then uses the "discretionary power" to authorize the treatment. Or the immigration minister steps in the stop a father of 5 Canadian kids from being extradited, (again ministrerial discretion)..

As for "very very compelling reason", again what is your source of info ? (experience with prior cases ?

See above.

My "compelling reason" is that the legislation looks like it was never written to cover the (never-would-probably-happen of someone dumb enough NOT to renew their license -who-had-30+-years of driving experience) :)

It was indeed written to cover this scenario. Doesn't list, (differentiate), WHY your licence wasn't valid. It simply states if you weren't a licenced driver, for XX years then you must do this to get your licence back. Doesn't matter if it was suspended, expired, or someone left the country and never renewed.

What were your friends circumstances ?

He had tickets, and didn't have money to pay, then fines were paid and he didn't have the money for reinstatement fee. SO he eventually paid the reinstatment fee, but never bothered to renew his licence, (which he could have done). All said it was 10 years and three months. He spoke to MTO offices in Kingston, (they handle GTA area calls). He was told had he applied at 9 years 364 days it would have just been renewed. But the second it became 10 years and 1 day he was considered a "new" driver.

As for a "supervisor", I got a direct reply from Pat Roberts / Senior Customer Service Liaison / Ministry of Transportation.
I don't know how high up "the food chain" she ? (patti) is.
Click to expand...

Then it would appear you have your answer, (not the one you wanted), but still a clear answer. My point was simply to show just don't take the word of a front desk staff at a Service Ontario office as they may not have the experience to answer correctly. I am sure this person likely deals with these types of questions on a regular basis. But asking costs nothing, if you contact the ministers office, (He is unlikely to respond personally to you but rather his staff will), again they may not know. The MTO staff deal with regulations all day every day. Ministers deal with "bigger picture stuff" and don't know the regs like the staff do.
 
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hedo2002 said:
It is fact of law ALL ministers, (provinical and federal), have discretionary powers, in "special circumstance occurences"
Click to expand...

Which "law" ? Do you happen to know the "law #" ? Otherwise I'll go back to googling

hedo2002 said:
mstram said:
My "compelling reason" is that the legislation looks like it was never written to cover the (never-would-probably-happen of someone dumb enough NOT to renew their license -who-had-30+-years of driving experience)
Click to expand...

It was indeed written to cover this scenario. Doesn't list, (differentiate), WHY your licence wasn't valid.
Click to expand...


What "scenario" are you talking about? ANY expired license ? REGARDLESS of driving experience?

The issue is that the expiry "penalties" are based only on how long a license has expired.

There is no mention or regard to the amount of driver experience prior to the expiration.

It is ridiculous that someone licensed for possibly only a year or less, then letting their license expire, faces the same process ("new driver") as a driver who has 10, 20, 30 years of experience.
 
mstram said:
Which "law" ? Do you happen to know the "law #" ? Otherwise I'll go back to googling

In Canada it is referred to as "common law". Ministerial discretion is an "accepted" principle by even the SCC,
http://administrativelawmatters.blogspot.ca/2013/06/some-thoughts-on-scc-decision-in-agraira.html Although this is a law firms' Interpetation of the rulings by the SCC, (Supreme Court of Canada), you can see clearly that the SCC accepted the pricinple of the ministers involved having discretionary powers.

Took me all of about two minutes using Google to find this as well as many other instances.



What "scenario" are you talking about? ANY expired license ? REGARDLESS of driving experience?

Given that there are no limits set in the legislation already posted, then yes it would apply to ANY licence and is not based on weather the applicant had 1 year or 30 years prior driving experience. To get the "answer" you so desperately want, the regs would have to have been written with wording to set limits IE if the applicant had less than 5 years previous driving experience then XX would apply, if the applicant had more than 5 but less than 10 years XX would apply. It doesn't therefore, it applies evenly to all applicants.

The issue is that the expiry "penalties" are based only on how long a license has expired.

What "penalties" There are NO penalties. It is a simple "requirement" that you must fulfill. The legislation had to set a term limit, (albeit somwhat arbitrary of 10 years), otherwise someone whose licence expired by 1 day would also revert to the requirements your now facing. So the ministry set it at 10 years. I feel that would be a reasonable period.

There is no mention or regard to the amount of driver experience prior to the expiration.

Because it is not relevant. If someone hasn't operated a vehicle for 10 years, then perhaps they need a refresher. The laws have changed DRAMATICALLY over the past 10 years, (which you may or may not be aware of) therefore, it is reasonable that you should be retested to ensure your aware of the relevant legislation that NEVER existed during your "previous experience"

IE:
distracted driving,
slow down and move over,
s172,
etc etc etc.


It is ridiculous that someone licensed for possibly only a year or less, then letting their license expire, faces the same process ("new driver") as a driver who has 10, 20, 30 years of experience.
Click to expand...

You may "feel" it is ridiculous while others may "feel" it is reasonable. Doesn't matter, the legislation is written to cover everyone equally, (in the process they must follow). If it took into account, previous driving experience then someone who was licenced for less than a year could "argue" they went thru the graduated system previously whereas someone with 30 years experience never did, thereforethey should also be exempted.

In the end, doesn't matter what you or I "feel" the legislation has been in effect for quite sometime. You are, (as with all laws), expected to know the law, (ignorance is not a legal excuse), Therefore, you exceeed the limits set by the regulations and you must live with those imposed limits, (if you wish to exercise your PRIVILEDGE to drive). Just as one must abide by the limits of speed set on a road, or deal with the consequences of not doing so. My friend, (who had over 20 years of previous experience), wasn't happy either but he had to go thru the same process your now facing.

You can keep looking for an "out" or you can bite the bullet and get started, on the process and get back on the road, or you can choose the only other option, (public transit).
 
hedo2002 said:
The laws have changed DRAMATICALLY over the past 10 years, (which you may or may not be aware of) therefore, it is reasonable that you should be retested to ensure your aware of the relevant legislation that NEVER existed during your "previous experience"
Click to expand...

For someone with 30+ years driving experience :

Retested is reasonable.

Having to possess a restricted G1 for a year, BEFORE being retested and a G2 for another year is not.

Anyway, thanks for the "common law" phrase. Google is easy when you know what words to look for :)
 
mstram said:
For someone with 30+ years driving experience :

Retested is reasonable.

Having to possess a restricted G1 for a year, BEFORE being retested and a G2 for another year is not.

Anyway, thanks for the "common law" phrase. Google is easy when you know what words to look for :)
Click to expand...

Ok so you agree that you should be subjected to retesting. Well as the regulations, (as given to you by MTO), currenty exist, and are written there is no mechanism to provide for "retesting" but rather there is a "graduated system" which includes the testing phase. Again ask if you are required to wait the time limits, as I said my friend, (now this was with their M tests wasn't required to wait any period he did his M1 exit test in St Catherines on a Tuesday and did his M2 road test on Wed in Aurora.
 
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