Teachers on strike

unfortunately, most of the general public are misinformed to the real issues in this contract talks...it's not all about teacher salaries but also about class sizes, support for special needs children, professional discretion regarding which assessments to use, how to use planning time etc...unions and the trustees/government have agreed to not divulge specifics which is why there's so much speculation out there...most teachers you talk to will admit we (yes I am one of them) are paid well and have excellent benefits, vacations, pensions etc...however, to think we do nothing outside of school hours is ludicrous...when do we plan, mark, meet with/call parents, run sports activities, run homework help clubs, write report clubs, collate and analyze data to instruct our teaching, take professional development courses etc?...it is all done before and after school and/or during summer break...in elementary, classes can be as high as 35 (try managing 35 13 year olds in grade 8 or 30 JK/SK kids)...I worked for 14 years in corporate and never once did I have to take work home (and I was a mutual fund manager at one point)...never once did I have to leave detailed lessons/work for my supply because if I was sick at the bank someone else picked up the slack or the work waited for me to get back...I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for the world...are there lazy teachers?...of course, as in every profession...keep in mind, I am not just a teacher...I am a nurse, mediator, provider of hugs etc. to a collection of personalities (throw in ASD, ADHD, behaviour and that makes for some interesting days)...I have two degrees and 9 additional courses to get me where I am today (all in 10 short years) so please don't tell me I make too much when I see 6-digit incomes in other professions all around me (BTW a starting salary is around $43,000)...we really are looking out for the best interests of the kids and if you take the time to research this or talk to a teacher you will see what we are fighting for..

ifiddles said:

unfortunately, most of the general public are misinformed to the real issues in this contract talks...it's not all about teacher salaries but also about class sizes, support for special needs children, professional discretion regarding which assessments to use, how to use planning time etc...unions and the trustees/government have agreed to not divulge specifics which is why there's so much speculation out there...most teachers you talk to will admit we (yes I am one of them) are paid well and have excellent benefits, vacations, pensions etc...however, to think we do nothing outside of school hours is ludicrous...when do we plan, mark, meet with/call parents, run sports activities, run homework help clubs, write report clubs, collate and analyze data to instruct our teaching, take professional development courses etc?...it is all done before and after school and/or during summer break...in elementary, classes can be as high as 35 (try managing 35 13 year olds in grade 8 or 30 JK/SK kids)...I worked for 14 years in corporate and never once did I have to take work home (and I was a mutual fund manager at one point)...never once did I have to leave detailed lessons/work for my supply because if I was sick at the bank someone else picked up the slack or the work waited for me to get back...I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for the world...are there lazy teachers?...of course, as in every profession...keep in mind, I am not just a teacher...I am a nurse, mediator, provider of hugs etc. to a collection of personalities (throw in ASD, ADHD, behaviour and that makes for some interesting days)...I have two degrees and 9 additional courses to get me where I am today (all in 10 short years) so please don't tell me I make too much when I see 6-digit incomes in other professions all around me (BTW a starting salary is around $43,000)...we really are looking out for the best interests of the kids and if you take the time to research this or talk to a teacher you will see what we are fighting for..

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And yet those waiting for a job teaching for the compensation and benefits is long. How many have graduated teachers college, work the odd sub teaching gig with hopes to get on full time?

Heck, how many folks are praying for a public sector job?

Must be pretty deplorable work conditions?

Not to bash the teachers. Honest. We are talking about the government negotiating with the union here. You can't expect them to do anything reasonable.

It's a crap shoot.

As a parent of an 11 year old and a 3 year old, I see the issues that have occurred with larger class sizes over the years. Yes, the teachers have it good. But the new proposals will make it worse for the students. And for the good teachers out there, this will make it harder for them to teach, and for the kids to learn. I'm fortunate that my older boy is in the PACE program. With only 21 students that qualified, he gets the attention that he, and every child, deserves. It wasn't so in the class of 30.
My younger boy will be going from daycare with 3-4 eces, 20 kids, to 1 teacher, 1 TA, for 30 kids. I want a smaller class, or another TA. And that's assuming there are no children with learning disabilities in the class, because then I would expect another resource teacher as well.

ZX600 said:

Actually no, they are fighting so the government does not have the right to increase class sizes at their will, so you know your kids (if you have any) don't have to share the class and the teachers attention with other 30 or 40 kids or how many the next politician decides is ok, that among many other things which none include salary increases.
I would suggest you read a little and educate yourself before making such strong arguments on something you even admit you have no clue about! Just saying.

Wonder why people don't get this ****** off at the government for wasting their money on issues like the power plant, but yet they get ****** at teachers. Government trying to pay for their **** ups on the back of your kids education, now there is an editorial you don't hear many people talking about because it is easier to be short minded and blame the teachers.

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Fixed it for ya! Just sayin'.

ifiddles said:

unfortunately, most of the general public are misinformed to the real issues in this contract talks...it's not all about teacher salaries but also about class sizes, support for special needs children, professional discretion regarding which assessments to use, how to use planning time etc...unions and the trustees/government have agreed to not divulge specifics which is why there's so much speculation out there...most teachers you talk to will admit we (yes I am one of them) are paid well and have excellent benefits, vacations, pensions etc...however, to think we do nothing outside of school hours is ludicrous...when do we plan, mark, meet with/call parents, run sports activities, run homework help clubs, write report clubs, collate and analyze data to instruct our teaching, take professional development courses etc?...it is all done before and after school and/or during summer break...in elementary, classes can be as high as 35 (try managing 35 13 year olds in grade 8 or 30 JK/SK kids)...I worked for 14 years in corporate and never once did I have to take work home (and I was a mutual fund manager at one point)...never once did I have to leave detailed lessons/work for my supply because if I was sick at the bank someone else picked up the slack or the work waited for me to get back...I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for the world...are there lazy teachers?...of course, as in every profession...keep in mind, I am not just a teacher...I am a nurse, mediator, provider of hugs etc. to a collection of personalities (throw in ASD, ADHD, behaviour and that makes for some interesting days)...I have two degrees and 9 additional courses to get me where I am today (all in 10 short years) so please don't tell me I make too much when I see 6-digit incomes in other professions all around me (BTW a starting salary is around $43,000)...we really are looking out for the best interests of the kids and if you take the time to research this or talk to a teacher you will see what we are fighting for..

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When your all hours are said and done, you are not working more than hard working person from private sector. As always, you have people who don't work so hard, and others who do. As said before, summer off is well deserved for someone who really put their effort in.

But again, the perception that you are striking on my behalf or behalf of my kid is a stretch at best. If I have a problem with a class size or time my kid specially needs, I will do the fighting myself with other parents sharing the same view. I am not asking or expecting the teachers to do so by jeopardizing kid's school year who is so important to them as they often cite.

I just want you to teach, to the best of your abilities .... I have yet to meet a parent who would blame a teacher for class size or time tgey have for their child.

I truly believe that it's more about the teachers and their union. Sorry.

Also wonder, if any other party is back at the helm in Ontario, what will the teachers do then? The liberals have made the conditions a heaven for basically any public gig. It will not be better than what you have had in the last 12 or so years .... Is the union ever be satisfied with anything?? I am guessing not ....

I went to a school with 1100 kids. Class size was 30 and teachers didnt have teachers aids. I didnt see any issues growing up and never felt a teacher didnt have time for any questions I or anyone else had. Is there THAT many special needs kids in Canada? Maybe we should be looking at what people are eating/drinking/breathing in.

DownUnder said:

I went to a school with 1100 kids. Class size was 30 and teachers didnt have teachers aids. I didnt see any issues growing up and never felt a teacher didnt have time for any questions I or anyone else had. Is there THAT many special needs kids in Canada? Maybe we should be looking at what people are eating/drinking/breathing in.

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How old were you when you were in this class size? A class of 30 10yr olds is vastly different than a class of 303-5yr olds.

While I'm unhappy my kid isn't in school due to this strike I fully support the teachers. The thing with taking workers rights and benefits away is that people forget it trickles down to all other sectors and fields. There were things that were fought and won that the government now throws into collective bargaining to dismiss all previous gains. The best part about all us pions flinging **** at each other is those elite keep getting paid. The rich keep getting richer while the working man takes it up the arse.
The government/school board ain't on strike. The elected officials/school board officials will still get full pensions and their summers off but no one ******* about that...

It is amazing how little respect and support teachers get in North America compared to other countries. Teachers are treated like they are a burden and should be grateful of any scraps they get. The position of teacher should be attracting our best and brightest, not just those that have a passion for teaching. Too many say, **** it I get better treatment and pay in the private sector

I get to teach the kids that come out of high school and if the past few years of first year undergraduates have been any indicator of things to come I fully support any teachers action that will produce better (or better prepared) students. The best schools worldwide have the smallest classes, there's a reason for that.

On another note...there's a serious problem with teachers unions that hinder the development of younger teachers in terms of them actually getting on the bottom rung of the ladder and moving on from a temporary position. Hopefully they have put a stop to the hiring of retirees over new young teachers for various positions, that was ridiculous.

CruisnGrrl said:

It is amazing how little respect and support teachers get in North America compared to other countries. Teachers are treated like they are a burden and should be grateful of any scraps they get. The position of teacher should be attracting our best and brightest, not just those that have a passion for teaching. Too many say, **** it I get better treatment and pay in the private sector

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CG,

Compared to who? The USA? Sure, I would agree.

As for teachers themselves. In Canada. In Ontario. I think they have a pretty good gig. My friend is a high school teacher. Earns 94k a year. No bonus, no incentive to do more or better. But, it's not that bad??? He's got a BA in History. Got his teacher's certificate. Cut his teeth in the hammer. Moved back to his home town. And is maxed out right now.

Does he represent those that enter the field? Is he close to retirement? He's late 30's.

So we argued this evening. I bust his chops. He bust mine. But, he didn't have anything dumb down enough to tell me what all the hoopla is all about.

I'm in the private sector. Stuff goes down, I get down sized. I find another job that is comparable. But I have to accept the going rate of income offered or move on to the next. I have a base salary with bonus incentives based on performance. Company blows, I get nothing. Blows even worse, I get the door.

Try that in a union environment.

Not going to happen.

I'm not looking for teachers to teach 100 students and make sure they can win the spelling bee against Japan and earn $40k annually and get two weeks holiday and 5 days sick days. It's a noble profession that requires a higher level of education to qualify to do the job.

I told my friend to go work for the private sector. They have jobs that pay well and for private schools, there is demand. His response? It's not secure!!!! If they don't like you, you get shown the door.

Well then, that's what the private sector is like too!!!! If my client isn't happy. If my boss doesn't think I'm doing a good job, I'm shown the door.

I get paid well. I work well. I enjoy a life. I know what is at risk if I slack off.

Why is that any more difficult for a teacher?

We are not asking them to shovel the stalls out after the herd has left the building.

prepare, teach, report,


If that is for 30 students or 31, I don't know if that makes much of a difference. I don't. But, from what I understand, class size was the Liberal Government promise to reduce. From what? I don't know. What is it now? I don't know. It's all just smoke and mirrors.

I think it's stupid to have portable class rooms at the same school for years on end.

But, I honestly don't know about what the appropriate number of students is good or not. And my friend really couldn't tell me.

The problem with teachers not getting any sympathy in Ontario is because we have all had teachers. In my 13 grade scholastic adventure in the public schools of Ontario I can name 3 teachers that went above and beyond, did the job because they had a passion for it and it showed. Another 2 or 3 teachers were just okay and the remaining ~30 were simply showing up and cashing a paycheque. No passion, no dedication and no people skills. A true disgrace to the taxpayer.

None of the bad teachers would be able to survive a year in the private sector.

I have many friends and relatives that are teachers. You know who does it to help, and who does it for summers off. One teacher had a rough student in her class 2 years in a row (she kept moving up grades) the third year the principal said they would give her a break and place the student in another class, and the teacher refused. Her reason? I'm just starting to get through to this child. I wish all teachers were like that.
Nakkers, at 30 kids, I say it's too much. 20-25 works. I'm nit gonna complain about their job security because any one if us could have followed the same path. My path just happened to lead away from higher education and down a dark alley.

I may have enjoyed a few wobbly pops last night. Entered into a conversation I have no business being it. lol.

I think the teacher have a pretty good gig. They know it. The government knows it. The public knows it. I'm still not sure why there is any strikes going on but, I'm sure it will get sorted out like previous years. Seems to be the way it goes now a days.

nakkers said:

I may have enjoyed a few wobbly pops last night. Entered into a conversation I have no business being it. lol.

I think the teacher have a pretty good gig. They know it. The government knows it. The public knows it. I'm still not sure why there is any strikes going on but, I'm sure it will get sorted out like previous years. Seems to be the way it goes now a days.

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Wasn't it you who said if you're not expanding you're falling behind? I think that explains it.

inreb said:

Wasn't it you who said if you're not expanding you're falling behind? I think that explains it.

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I can't remember what I had for breakfast but, that sounds like something I might have read and spouted off as my own.

Is it time for ice cream yet?

CruisnGrrl said:

It is amazing how little respect and support teachers get in North America compared to other countries. Teachers are treated like they are a burden and should be grateful of any scraps they get. The position of teacher should be attracting our best and brightest, not just those that have a passion for teaching. Too many say, **** it I get better treatment and pay in the private sector

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I don't know how many teachers from other countries around the world you have talked to, but I think they get quite a bit if respect in Ontario. Unfortunately, the union doesn't care about the best and brightest, it's all about seniority. It's mind boggling how some of teachers, get to teach so long and happily retire ... If that was a private company, sone of them would not survive a yearly performance review ....

DownUnder said:

I went to a school with 1100 kids. Class size was 30 and teachers didnt have teachers aids. I didnt see any issues growing up and never felt a teacher didnt have time for any questions I or anyone else had. Is there THAT many special needs kids in Canada? Maybe we should be looking at what people are eating/drinking/breathing in.

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You make a good point, but of course you will never get a straight answer.

I heard they were ordered back to work by the liberals... Yay!

ifiddles said:

...however, to think we do nothing outside of school hours is ludicrous...when do we plan, mark, meet with/call parents, run sports activities, run homework help clubs, write report clubs, collate and analyze data to instruct our teaching, take professional development courses etc?...it is all done before and after school and/or during summer break...in elementary, classes can be as high as 35 (try managing 35 13 year olds in grade 8 or 30 JK/SK kids)...I worked for 14 years in corporate and never once did I have to take work home (and I was a mutual fund manager at one point)...never once did I have to leave detailed lessons/work for my supply because if I was sick at the bank someone else picked up the slack or the work waited for me to get back...I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for the world...

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Let's do the math on this one shall we?
Teacher:
8:30 - 3:30 - 7 hours per day, 5 days a week = 35 hours
9 months a year (2 months summer, 2 weeks winter, 1 week spring) = 39 weeks
35 x 39 = 1365 hours/year

Private sector anything:
9 - 5 - 8 hours per day, 5 days a week = 40 hours
50 weeks per year (52 - 2 weeks holiday)
40 x 50 = 2000 hours per year

Are you trying to tell us that the average teacher spends 635 hours per year doing prep/report cards/etc.?

If it wasn't such a good gig, why are there 7000 unemployed teachers in Ontario? Supply and demand have a serious discrepancy, why do you suppose that is? Furthermore, the numbers above assume the person in the private sector doesn't take work home either, which many, many do. And it also assumes the teachers are working the entire time they're at school. Which, in many cases, isn't the case. When I was in high school ~20 years ago, we had 4 classes per day, at 78 minutes per class. Each teacher was required to teach 3 classes per day. The 4th class was essentially a spare for them. 78 x 3 = 234 minutes, or just shy of 4 hours. Furthermore, the numbers above are based off office hours, if you work construction or factory, you work 8 hours a day, but are at work for 8.5 hours per day.

To say that teachers here don't get any respect is laughable. In the southern States quite probably they don't, but here, they get more than anywhere on Earth. What the Ontario gov't should do, take the average class size of all G8, or G20 nations, average teacher salary of those nations, and get a $/child figure. Then pay teachers in Ontario that number adjusted for cost of living in each area (Toronto is clearly more expensive to live in than North Bay). I bet if each teacher got paid more if their class size was bigger, there wouldn't have been a strike. TA's would also be accounted for in this equation.

This would put an end to strikes/mediation/unions and all other horse$#!T associated with that sector. To those that use teacher retirement as a source for debate, unlike other public sector employees, TEACHERS pay into their pension, not the average Ontarion.

Just saw on the news some of the action they will take next... Not filling out grant/schploship paperwork for kids that need it to continue their education. Yep teachers only think of what is best for the kids... Confirmed teachers are a lazy bunch of self centered asshats.

Renboys post was spot on, though a lot of construction guys and office workers higher up the chain are working 10hr days so about 2500 hrs a year almost double what teachers are complaining about.