Fallen Riders/In Memory of - COMMENTS | GTAMotorcycle.com

Fallen Riders/In Memory of - COMMENTS

Gryphon

Well-known member
So, we all know that discussion of events/causes in that forum is discouraged.
But I am seeing a pattern developing...
It goes something like this: "Rider was hit by a vehicle making a left turn."
Everyone assumes the cager was 'not paying attention' or at least that it was his fault!
This is very often not the case - often it is the fault of the motorcycle pilot.

Rolling along, urban roads with repeated intersections. Traffic lights.
Speed limit is 60 kph - but often 50 kph! Even on big, wide 5-lane roadways...
Have you ever tried to do 50 kph? It's crazy; nobody goes that speed.
If it's 50 then everyone goes 60.
Except you. You're doing 70.

Light turns yellow. You must STOP. Stop now! Stop right away, don't even think about it.
Because you're waaay up the road (going too fast) and that car turning left WILL proceed on yellow.
It's what they do - it's how it works.
If you think you are going too fast to stop - "oh I'll just go through" - you're in a world of hurt...
You need to be off-throttle, covering the brakes, ready to drop anchor EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Practice hard stopping - everyone. Do it in a giant parking lot or empty road; whatever.
Pretend you must stop crazy-hard to avoid collision, or you will die.
Get your tires squeaking! And get bloody good at it.
All riders should have this skill - even from 100 kph (which will really get your attention, if you snatch the front tire) heheh...

A wise old experienced rider will scope out intersections way ahead of arriving there, to perceive if there are left-turners.
Yellow? STOP! It's a skill - you need to learn it, you need to be an expert. And watch your speed!
Because I don't want to read about you on the "In Memory Of" thread (or even "Fallen Riders")...
Regards
 
True enough.Or don't go 70 in a 50.
 
There are times when it's appropriate to be *below* the posted speed limit.

Approaching an intersection in which there is an opposing left turner AND a car that is turning right from the cross street into the same direction that you are going ... is a pretty darn good situation in which to slow down. High probability that you will have very limited escape options in case either car does the wrong thing.
 
I haven't been riding on the street the last few seasons because I don't care for the apparent magnet that is attached to the rear end of motorcycles. In reality, I think it's just a hyper awareness of how much it would suck to get rear ended. The decisions get sketchier when people are following closely. So you're approaching an intersection with left and/or right turning vehicles, and with someone who is trying desperately to get as close as possible to your back tire.

I wonder if it's because people somewhat expect sport bikes to be exceeding the speed limit more than cars, so they set up camp right behind you when they catch up sooner than predicted. That, coupled with a bit of fixation on motorcycles and at the expense of traffic and lights, because bikes are somewhat uncommon. A lot of people in the Kitchener, Cambridge, Waterloo, Guelph, London, etc. areas seem to carry as much speed as possible to a stop, brake as hard and late as possible without actually stopping, and roll through or creep until it's clear. This is great news for your local brake shops and gas stations, but bad news for rear-end collisions, which are also disproportionately high in these areas(at least they were the last time I saw data on it).

I've been in states where this kind of rolling stop, late braking, and hard braking, is almost non-existent, and people give huge amounts of space between each other. Then again, I've been in states where when you can see that nobody is coming in any direction, they blow right through 4-way stops without even lifting off the gas.
 
It's not as easy as you make it out to be. You need to stop when you can but there's also a risk of getting plowed from behind if you stop when the person behind you didn't anticipate it.

Case in point what happened to me a few wks ago. I should have done things differently and I learned from it, but I found myself going through a intersection too deep into the yellow with a left turner.

I was going the speed limit and there was a car beside me in a 4 lane road. Light turns yellow but the car beside me proceeds, and its not that yellow. There's a car waiting to turn left but I have a car beside me, and I should have known what exactly was happening behind me, but I didn't know forsure, so I felt it safest to go with the car through the yellow. Turns out the car beside me didn't see that yellow and slammed on its brakes as we were about to enter the intersection. This left me with nothing but poor choices to make as I enter the intersection exposed, under yellow with a left turner who may not see me.

Slam on my brakes too and possibly get nailed from behind?
Proceed and possibly plough into the left turner if he fails to notice that while the car slammed on its brakes I did not.

I chose a hybrid of the two. I slowed such that I could deal with the left turner if that happened but stayed fast enough that risk from behind was nil.

That put me in the intersection during the red, but I felt it was safest, even though it probably turned a clean intersection into an infraction.

I'm aware of what's happening behind me more now and trying to anticipate potential yellows more than I was before.

Don't mean to hijack your thread with an off-topic, just throwing it out there.
 
It's not as easy as you make it out to be. You need to stop when you can but there's also a risk of getting plowed from behind if you stop when the person behind you didn't anticipate it.

that is why traffic circles.. round abouts... work ... well, should work to stop the left turn for sure.. and the rear enders ......
 
So, we all know that discussion of events/causes in that forum is discouraged.
But I am seeing a pattern developing...
It goes something like this: "Rider was hit by a vehicle making a left turn."
Everyone assumes the cager was 'not paying attention' or at least that it was his fault!
This is very often not the case - often it is the fault of the motorcycle pilot.

Rolling along, urban roads with repeated intersections. Traffic lights.
Speed limit is 60 kph - but often 50 kph! Even on big, wide 5-lane roadways...
Have you ever tried to do 50 kph? It's crazy; nobody goes that speed.
If it's 50 then everyone goes 60.
Except you. You're doing 70.

Light turns yellow. You must STOP. Stop now! Stop right away, don't even think about it.
Because you're waaay up the road (going too fast) and that car turning left WILL proceed on yellow.
It's what they do - it's how it works.
If you think you are going too fast to stop - "oh I'll just go through" - you're in a world of hurt...
You need to be off-throttle, covering the brakes, ready to drop anchor EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Practice hard stopping - everyone. Do it in a giant parking lot or empty road; whatever.
Pretend you must stop crazy-hard to avoid collision, or you will die.
Get your tires squeaking! And get bloody good at it.
All riders should have this skill - even from 100 kph (which will really get your attention, if you snatch the front tire) heheh...

A wise old experienced rider will scope out intersections way ahead of arriving there, to perceive if there are left-turners.
Yellow? STOP! It's a skill - you need to learn it, you need to be an expert. And watch your speed!
Because I don't want to read about you on the "In Memory Of" thread (or even "Fallen Riders")...
Regards

Three things:

You don't need to practice hard braking at 100 k/h to get the sensation and muscle memory down. In fact you don't have to go very fast at all, as the same things happen at lower speeds and higher speeds, just for a longer period of time, and the amount of injury at higher speeds is far greater if you mess up.

If you're stopping really hard more than a couple of time a year, then you need to re-evaluate your driving style, and whether or not you belong on a motorcycle.

I believe that the most common "accident" on a bike is someone messing up while riding a curve. i.e. a single vehicle crash, and they manage to limp home.
It's not as easy as you make it out to be. You need to stop when you can but there's also a risk of getting plowed from behind if you stop when the person behind you didn't anticipate it.

Case in point what happened to me a few wks ago. I should have done things differently and I learned from it, but I found myself going through a intersection too deep into the yellow with a left turner.

I was going the speed limit and there was a car beside me in a 4 lane road. Light turns yellow but the car beside me proceeds, and its not that yellow. There's a car waiting to turn left but I have a car beside me, and I should have known what exactly was happening behind me, but I didn't know forsure, so I felt it safest to go with the car through the yellow. Turns out the car beside me didn't see that yellow and slammed on its brakes as we were about to enter the intersection. This left me with nothing but poor choices to make as I enter the intersection exposed, under yellow with a left turner who may not see me.

Slam on my brakes too and possibly get nailed from behind?
Proceed and possibly plough into the left turner if he fails to notice that while the car slammed on its brakes I did not.

I chose a hybrid of the two. I slowed such that I could deal with the left turner if that happened but stayed fast enough that risk from behind was nil.

That put me in the intersection during the red, but I felt it was safest, even though it probably turned a clean intersection into an infraction.

I'm aware of what's happening behind me more now and trying to anticipate potential yellows more than I was before.

Don't mean to hijack your thread with an off-topic, just throwing it out there.

I think in many ways we're our own worst enemy with regards to being rear-ended. I've heard many people argue that they've stopped for 1/1,000,000 of a second at a light/stop sign, when they haven't even put their foot down. Because so many bikes have been running red lights and stop signs, more and more cagers are expecting bikes to run them, and more and more bikes are willing to do so. It's a vicious trend that we need to evaluate and change.

What puzzles me from your description above, is that you didn't seem to know if there was a vehicle behind you and how close it was, because you never mentioned that in your description; only that you were fearful of being rear-ended. The easiest way to get rid of a tail is usually to slow down. That gives you the double bonus, in that if anything does happen, it's at a lower speed.
 
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Saw a guy blast through a stale yellow on a gixxer, past cars that were already coming to a stop. The car facing him waiting patiently to make a left turn saw him at the last moment and slammed on her brakes, saving his life.
 
So, we all know that discussion of events/causes in that forum is discouraged.
But I am seeing a pattern developing...
It goes something like this: "Rider was hit by a vehicle making a left turn."
Everyone assumes the cager was 'not paying attention' or at least that it was his fault!
This is very often not the case - often it is the fault of the motorcycle pilot.
...

Sure, but your post is conjecture at best because we don't have a parallel thread: what happened and our critical comments. I get that we can do better with left turners (surely if you know it's the biggest threat you treat it as such?) but we all cross intersections with cars waiting to go. Do the accidents happen on yellows? With the rider speeding? Because the cager suddenly goes for it? Because the rider was hidden? No idea. I go to different safety-focused forums for detailed analysis and I'm left wondering what happened in the GTA.

Anyway, yes, know your danger zones and ride accordingly. The craziest stat for me is 40% being single vehicle: that is, presumed rider error, usually on turns. Do that many people ride recklessly? I was bounced clear off my seat today by a ridge in the road: had I crashed would it have been simply "rider lost control" or piss-poor road maintenance? This is a sector that still quotes the Hurt report from 35 years ago. I suspect we have little idea why we crash and not sure if anyone in a position to do so is looking into it. After reading an OPP report in the Star that a certain age group was over-represented in fatalities I called the OPP to ask if they were also over-represented in ridership. They didn't know. So their report to the media was utterly meaningless and offered zero understanding. Is there an evidence-based motorcycle advocacy group in Canada that tries to get to the bottom of things and adjust laws or behaviours accordingly? Why not?
 
...This is a sector that still quotes the Hurt report from 35 years ago. I suspect we have little idea why we crash and not sure if anyone in a position to do so is looking into it. After reading an OPP report in the Star that a certain age group was over-represented in fatalities I called the OPP to ask if they were also over-represented in ridership. They didn't know. So their report to the media was utterly meaningless and offered zero understanding. Is there an evidence-based motorcycle advocacy group in Canada that tries to get to the bottom of things and adjust laws or behaviours accordingly? Why not?

There has been no update to the Hurt Report in the US that I know of, and they are 10 times the size of Canada. It seems difficult to get funding for evidence based studies. Still, the Hurt Report is all we've got, and we're thankful we even have that. Canada has never had any evidence based study, not to mention any MC advocacy group. I don't think any government body is concerned with the welfare of motorcycle riders in particular. There are too few MC riders to matter.

Proficient Motorcycling, a book by David Hough, outlines dangerous situations and what to do to minimize your risk. The book is a good read and can be borrowed from the library. There's nothing earth shattering here: don't speed, don't drink and ride, minimize night riding, be very wary of intersections, just the usual advice that we've all heard before. His method of minimizing risk, however, is worth review.
 
I have a serious problem with ****tards that think it's their god given right to turn left well after the light turns red just because they bulldozed their way into the intersection and they happen to be third in line to turn or whatever. I've seen them hold up the through traffic on green so often it's nuts. I would like to see those ***** get nailed by traffic light cameras and sent automatic tickets for blowing red stop lights and if enough of them were sent the message might get through.

It would be a good idea to have "enter intersection only when way is clear" signs on some of the bigger intersections and maybe even change the highway code to reflect that too.
 
How do you guys see what's behind you ? Is everyone here using bar mirrors ? Because when I position my regular mirrors to partially see what's behind me, I loose a huge chunk of the field of vision to see to the left/right of my lane which I feel beats the purpose.
 
How do you guys see what's behind you ? Is everyone here using bar mirrors ? Because when I position my regular mirrors to partially see what's behind me, I loose a huge chunk of the field of vision to see to the left/right of my lane which I feel beats the purpose.

Shoulder checks, plus mirror extenders.
 
I have a serious problem with ****tards that think it's their god given right to turn left well after the light turns red just because they bulldozed their way into the intersection and they happen to be third in line to turn or whatever. I've seen them hold up the through traffic on green so often it's nuts. I would like to see those ***** get nailed by traffic light cameras and sent automatic tickets for blowing red stop lights and if enough of them were sent the message might get through.

It would be a good idea to have "enter intersection only when way is clear" signs on some of the bigger intersections and maybe even change the highway code to reflect that too.

They usually have to wait for those who's God given right is to run through the ambers. Sometimes it's the only way to be able to make a left, and other times, an opening suddenly disappears, as when a motorcycle quickly accelerates when the countdown timer gets close.
 
Verbal diarrhea warning!

I follow these rules whether I'm in my cage or the bike. Your mileage may vary.

If at any point, if any vehicle (ie. car, truck, motorcycle, bicycle, ebike) behind you is driving erratically whether they are following too closely or not, do everything to get out of there as soon as possible. That driver may be sleepy, distracted, impaired, angry, etc. You don't want to be in front of that car. And yes, I was sitting in my car once and rear ended by a seemingly homeless dude on a bicycle. One of the perks of big city living.

HELPER: Know your enemy. It helps to memorize the power delivery, gearing, drivetrain configuration, available transmission choices and engine braking characteristics of all possible vehicles over say the past two decades on the road to determine if they are indeed driving erratically. Make that determination after tracking them for a length of time. It will be harder at night because you have to be able to recognize a vehicle at distance immediately from the headlights/side markers arrangement from your bike mirrors. Memorize everything so that you don't even have to think about it. You will just know.

Also learning the demographics for certain car owners helps. For example, if I see an older gold or champagne coloured Toyota following me, I will ALWAYS get out of their way if I'm on a bike. That particular knowledge alone has likely saved my life at least once already and while I was driving a big car no less.


If there is a large vehicle in front of you obstructing your view, consider doubling or tripling your normal speed rated following distance (ie. move up to a 4 to 6 second bubble) to give yourself some more time to anticipate the moves of others around you by being able to see somewhat around the large vehicle obscuring your view.

With that said, there is now a good cushion ahead of you and no one uncomfortably close behind you. This way you have two intralane escape routes, braking hard or accelerating. You can't necessarily control what's going on in the lanes next to you but if they are clear, you now also have interlane escape options. Bonus.

Since you're always looking down the road 10+ seconds, you'll know if the light is likely to turn. In urban areas, the pedestrian countdown timer will assist.

If there is no ped countdown timer, gradually slow down to a comfortable approach speed by gearing down as much as needed to elevate your RPMs to one that is conducive to accelerating quickly. On an underpowered bike that won't break traction or loop out a power wheelie, the torque peak is ideal.

Don't just be prepared to stop. Expect to stop. Whether the light turns yellow or not. That means covering both brakes with fingers pre-tensioned. Without pre-tensioning, you'll grab too much. Two fingers on the front brakes for almost all bikes. All sorts of weird stuff "goes down" in intersections. Nobody can anticipate every scenario but if that piano falls from the sky, you will be ready as you can be.

HELPER: It pays to know your skills and those of your motorcycle. Your previous multiple emergency braking / full acceleration weather and road condition agnostic trials have been so ingrained into your head that you don't have to think about it. These tools are under your belt in case you because you will need them. Also if you practice locking up both wheels, you won't panic and hopefully react appropriately if it happens out on the streets. Dirt training FTW.

HELPER: If you can assess the turning car, it may help. For example, if it is raining and a late model Civic is turning in front of you, it is likely wearing all-season tires and is an automatic if it is already inching ahead at a consistent pace. This means that if the driver mats the car, it will not immediately lurch ahead since it has no balls in 3rd or 4th gear and even if it did have balls, it has little to no traction on that single front tire. You'll get maybe another half second before it enters your lane as opposed to something like an Audi S5 which will get into your face a heck of a lot quicker.

I must admit if the car only came in stick shift or has collectable value, I let my guard down. Maybe it distracts me because I'm smiling inside my helmet.

I'd rather not get rear ended by a car during an emergency braking session but if my options were between getting potentially rear ended and potentially smashing into a car head on, I'll take my chances getting rear ended as the closing speeds should be much lower. After all, I've already assessed the car I'll be potentially rear ended by as being piloted by an attentive driver so hopefully they'll already be covering their brakes.

Get that mental game in order and be safe!
 
@mudmojo has some good points.

I'm not downplaying the seriousness of getting rear-ended. But you have so many legal and safer choices to deal with cagers or other bikes that are following too closely.

They don't just suddenly start following closely, they've been paying lip-service to your rear tire for a while.

1) Are you in a passing lane? move to the right.
2) Paved shoulder available? pull over and let them pass.
3) No shoulder? move to the right tyre track and wave them forward (ie. they will have to use the oncoming lane to overtake)

Speeding and travelling in excess of the design limit (road condition & your skills) should only be for life threatening situations.
 

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