Does a lounder exhaust save lives? | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Does a lounder exhaust save lives?

Why do trains have horns?
Clearly the answer is to amuse small children who are driving their parents nuts in the car. Kind of like big rigs :D

This thread is funny. Reminds me of that new chick last year trying to get the loud pipes save lives petition going with her wide open drag pipe crowd in Toronto. :rolleyes:
 
Wonder how much we could save removing all those red flashing lights at train crossing's, seeing as everyone that drives has perfect hearing. ;)
Why don't we just remove the horns? They don't do anything anyway. Lol
 
No and that was the point. The whole loud pipes save lives argument is a never ending circle generally taken too far with a certain crowd and their fancy obnoxious chrome pipes.

Yeah those things can really hurt your ears on their way by, and I don't condone that at all. Its just the the black and white nature of this argument forces it.

A negative proof (known classically as appeal to ignorance) is a logical fallacy which takes the structure of:
X is true because there is no proof that X is false.

If the only evidence for something's existence is a lack of evidence for it not existing, then the default position is one of skepticism and not credulity. This type of negative proof is common in proofs of God's existence or in pseudosciences where it is used to attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the skeptic rather than the proponent of the idea. The burden of proof is on the individual proposing existence, not the one questioning existence.

Thank you Catherine Brown..lol.. So what test's can be created to test this? I think the most obvious would be to film a very common route many times and then analyze vehicle reactions.
 
You my friend are the one making all the assumptions. Have you looked at the many graphs of sound readings, (which have been posted, I believe here at GTAM, the last time this topic was discussed to death. The readings taken on bikes with louder pipes show very little difference from a vehicle in FRONT of the approaching bke. I didn't completely ignore your comment on people moving over in CA for you, It simply isn't relevant, you can't PROVE they moved over due to the loud pipes and therefore is not a relevant statement. If in CA people were moving over for you it wasn't due to the loud pipes you had as they wouldn't have heard them unless you were moving past vehicles which were stopped and they had their windows rolled down. In CA drivers are much more prone to look in their mirrors for lane splitting bikes due to it being legal there and they are used to it. Funny how the other rider who posted right after you also rode in CA with a quiet bike and he managed to have people moving for him while lane splitting without the benefit of the pipes. Which would seem to support the theory I advanced that people were WATCHING for lane splitters not LISTENING for them, as the speculation you advanced.

Part of my experience comes from riding with a friend who had a bike with aftermarket loud pipes, (thinking this was going to save his life). When we rode together I preferred to lead as that way I didn't have to listen to the NOISE his bike made. The noise was hardly noticeable as I was IN FRONT of him and not behind where MOST of the noise resides. The most revealing comment he made after having the pipes for over a year, was that he noticed absolutely NO difference in the actions of other drivers on the roads, even when he brapped the loud pipes.

My experience also comes form 35 years of riding with all types of bikes including those with loud pipes. If you agree that my point of riding skill being an obvious reason a rider stays safe, then why do you feel the need to state that you believe it is loud pipes. With that 35 years of riding many of them were before people felt the "need", (except for a few), to put loud pipes on their bikes and yet somehow we managed to survive.

You asked for science. Look up the sound readings taken. Also look at the crash stats, IF loud pipes were a big factor then the stats "should" show that the majority of bikes involved in crashes were those which only had a stock pipes and the ones with loud pipes would surely evade collisions due to this great saving device. I have rode SS and now a cruiser I can tell you even with stock the SS made a LOT more noise than my cruiser, yet I seem to have survived without having to rely on an exhaust to save my hide.

Lastly, you state you want science not feelings. It was you who began this thread with this statement....

Does noise stimulus aid riders..

I personally believe so.


So feel free to enlighten us as to how your "belief" is science??? I look forward to you posting up the science to back up your "belief"

Who's experience? Yours? In your city? In your town? You seem comfortable making assumptions in your arguments, which obviously taints their ability to be logical or free of bias. You also completely ignored my comment about "in CA a louder pipe makes cars move over a little to let you through.."

I just want straight science. Not feelings.
 
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just imagine is everyone had loud pipes in their car/truck/bike.. it would be so noisy.. and then wouldnt make a difference. ;-)

On highways, you could have the loudest bikes etc and many drivers would not notice you over their tunnel vision or blaring hip-hop music or 680 News while they put on makeup, txt a message or drink their coffee.

Right, so we started the Loud Pipe crap again.. waiting for the "Did Wave to me" and "Should I get a 1000cc" threads to start

edit: Looks like the 1000c thread has already started for this year ;-)
 
So what test's can be created to test this? I think the most obvious would be to film a very common route many times and then analyze vehicle reactions.

you need cameras in every vehicle to see the drivers reactions to bikes with loud pipes vs bikes without... you know who has the budget and time to do this? Mythbusters! they should do it, if that show still exists!
 
just imagine is everyone had loud pipes in their car/truck/bike.. it would be so noisy.. and then wouldnt make a difference. ;-)


Not sure if you were around the GTA after the original Fast and Furious movie was released - this was very much the case with anyone under 25.

9k=


Honda-Civic20Hatchback-907.jpg
 
A very dark time
 
If you went completely deaf you'd have to raise your other awareness techniques to compensate. I hope it's ok to say that.
 
You my friend are the one making all the assumptions. Have you looked at the many graphs of sound readings, (which have been posted, I believe here at GTAM, the last time this topic was discussed to death. The readings taken on bikes with louder pipes show very little difference from a vehicle in FRONT of the approaching bke. I didn't completely ignore your comment on people moving over in CA for you, It simply isn't relevant, you can't PROVE they moved over due to the loud pipes and therefore is not a relevant statement. If in CA people were moving over for you it wasn't due to the loud pipes you had as they wouldn't have heard them unless you were moving past vehicles which were stopped and they had their windows rolled down. In CA drivers are much more prone to look in their mirrors for lane splitting bikes due to it being legal there and they are used to it. Funny how the other rider who posted right after you also rode in CA with a quiet bike and he managed to have people moving for him while lane splitting without the benefit of the pipes. Which would seem to support the theory I advanced that people were WATCHING for lane splitters not LISTENING for them, as the speculation you advanced. Or they could have heard him. Your speculations are as good as mine.. which is why I was looking for an answer. Not this mess of what you and the other rider feel like happened. The reason I asked is because I was looking for a solution. Not to bicker over what you think I am assuming. I was referencing my personal experience. Not pretending it was science. I WANT the science is what I am trying to say, BUT even before the science comes, I believe loud(er) pipes help.

Part of my experience comes from riding with a friend who had a bike with aftermarket loud pipes, (thinking this was going to save his life). When we rode together I preferred to lead as that way I didn't have to listen to the NOISE his bike made. The noise was hardly noticeable as I was IN FRONT of him and not behind where MOST of the noise resides. The most revealing comment he made after having the pipes for over a year, was that he noticed absolutely NO difference in the actions of other drivers on the roads, even when he brapped the loud pipes. Wow that was extremely scientific. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

My experience also comes form 35 years of riding with all types of bikes including those with loud pipes. If you agree that my point of riding skill being an obvious reason a rider stays safe, then why do you feel the need to state that you believe it is loud pipes. With that 35 years of riding many of them were before people felt the "need", (except for a few), to put loud pipes on their bikes and yet somehow we managed to survive. Glad to hear it. I have nothing against your personal experience. However times have changed. The roads are nowhere near as sedate anymore.

Look up the sound readings taken. Also look at the crash stats, IF loud pipes were a big factor then the stats "should" show that the majority of bikes involved in crashes were those which only had a stock pipes and the ones with loud pipes would surely evade collisions due to this great saving device. So you are trying to use statistics to base your argument on alone? You aren't taking into consideration so many variables. But that's your choice.

Lastly, you state you want science not feelings. It was you who began this thread with this statement....

"Does noise stimulus aid riders.. I personally believe so."

So feel free to enlighten us as to how your "belief" is science??? I look forward to you posting up the science to back up your "belief"

I never once tried to imply that my belief is science. YOU are trying to make that assertion. I never stated I could post up the science. I was asking for proof of the question that is the title of the thread. I do not run obnoxious pipes at all, but I have had both as well (stock, modded), and my experience has been that it was noticed. I just want some sort of scientific proof to justify a muffler install on a expensive bike. If it proves to be BS, I will stay stock, and save a couple g's..

you need cameras in every vehicle to see the drivers reactions to bikes with loud pipes vs bikes without... you know who has the budget and time to do this? Mythbusters! they should do it, if that show still exists!

THAT is exactly what I would hope for.. :D
 
I ride with a buddy that has straight pipes. I prefer to be in front of him, so I don't hear the pipes (except for when I'm purposely listening for them to make sure he's still behind me). The times I have to follow his bike I prefer to be on the left as his pipes are on the right and it's less obnoxious on that side. Pedestrians might hear him coming though, but I'm usually not worried about a pedestrian side swiping me on the highway.
 
I know my friends that run loud pipes, I have never seen it, but apparently they cause people to move and give more room for the bike have you detected this phenomenon, when riding with your friend??? lol

I ride with a buddy that has straight pipes. I prefer to be in front of him, so I don't hear the pipes (except for when I'm purposely listening for them to make sure he's still behind me). The times I have to follow his bike I prefer to be on the left as his pipes are on the right and it's less obnoxious on that side. Pedestrians might hear him coming though, but I'm usually not worried about a pedestrian side swiping me on the highway.
 
There is a difference between obnoxious and audible. They need not be the same but there is overlap. Again, more in the video.

It's also a category-error to compare 'good riding' to 'loud pipes' or 'audible pipes'. Good riding is a given, all the time. On top of that we strive to be visible and audible because on-balance, that's superior to NOT being visible or audible, or being less visible/audible. See? :D

Humans and most mammals notice sounds. We hear because individuals literally survived better for being able to hear. Evolution selected for this trait. Why ignore it when it comes to cagers being able to sense your presence in any way they can sense anything? This is why large vehicles have back-up beepers, or why emergency vehicles have sirens, cops have loudspeakers or bullhorns and nearly every manufacturer-created and street-legal vehicle in the world comes with a horn (which is intended to be heard). Some electric cars have been deemed higher-risk for children and animals in residential neighborhoods, along with other motorists, so some have been fitted with artificial noisemakers simply to make people aware of their presence through a sonic medium.

Passive noisemakers of reasonable volume (exhaust and other noise) helps some creatures self-select to preempt your arrival and get out of the way. If kids are playing in the street in a residential neighborhood with vision blocked by cars and hear you coming, they can respond before you get there. Same with small animals and such. Parents can scoop up kids before they dart in to the street because they heard you coming.

Good riding is a given. We all should strive for this. Being visible? A given. Being seen is better than not being seen, in any way you care to be seen (high-viz, good lights, contrast, large swaths of color for a better silhouette, etc.). Likewise, being audible is simply another way for the cager to know that you are there and that you are on a bike (even the type of bike is indicated by sound). It is never the case that sound is said to work perfectly in all cases. Why? People have other distractions.

What is a common refrain from cagers when they fail to yield to a motorcyclist, resulting in an accident? 'I didn't see him', and these are people who are required to pass eye-exams in order to drive. Why then do we keep trying to be seen? It's because sight is reliable enough to trust that person not to rear-end you at the stops, unless they indicate that they're distracted or haven't noticed you in time. In fact, the squealing of brakes is an AUDIBLE signal that someone is about to rear-end you if it's coming from behind.

It's a fallacy to assume that loud pipes means you don't have to also be a good, astute or observant rider. Does wearing hi-viz gear mean you should ride like crap? No. If loud pipes don't save lives, then loud colors don't save lives—except that they can and do. Neither sight nor hearing works perfectly because humans are imperfect, but that's why more stimulus>less stimulus.

Snipers wear camouflage for a reason, and they lie still for a reason. They do this to avoid detection. Thieves sneaking around at night may attempt to be both less visible AND less audible. So, why when it comes to being noticed by errant cagers would we not want to exploit both visual AND audio stimulus?

And that is the crux of the argument. Loud pipes save lives, and the statement is true even if it only saves your life once.

-Taken from the comments of the original video. Sounds reasonable to me. Yay.. 1 star thread.. :rolleyes: my *feelings*
 
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I find it funny you inferred in your post that in your experience the cars in CA moved BECAUSE you had the loud pipes then when the other poster stated clearly he had a "silent" bike without the loud pipes, You argue that he and I are assuming this with this statement.

Or they could have heard him. Your speculations are as good as mine.. which is why I was looking for an answer. Not this mess of what you and the other rider feel like happened.

So please explain how they heard you because you had loud pipes, but they also heard him on what he described as a "silent bike" Those are diametrically opposed arguments. If indeed as you have just assumed in that statement they heard him on a "silent bike" then you defeated your own argument that loud pipes save lives as it would "appear" from this that those drivers were able to hear a "silent bike" just as well as they heard one with loud pipes therefore, logic would dictate that loud pipes have NO effect.

So which is more relevant his experience on a "silent bike" or your experience on a bike with loud pipes? If they both achieved the same result.

As for your pointing out the doppler effect on Wiki, You should note that the observers were stationary and not mobile, (as would be another vehicle on the road, with all the distractions), therefore not relevant to the question you poised.

But my best advice is, if loud pipes, (with or without supporting science), lead you to think or give you an increased sense of personal security then by all means go get them, install them and enjoy them. But to simply argue that as a result of one or two personal experiences, (without taking into consideration ALL factors), is simplistic. Your right I can't say why those other vehicles or pedestrians reacted the way they did, nor can you but you simply suggest the only possible explanation if the mere existence of loud pipes. Again going back to the video and replaying it a few times you can also just before the pedestrian reacts hear a horn, (given it is Europe I can't tell if it was the bike or a car horn. That factor needs to also be placed into the equation.

I never once tried to imply that my belief is science. YOU are trying to make that assertion. I never stated I could post up the science. I was asking for proof of the question that is the title of the thread. I do not run obnoxious pipes at all, but I have had both as well (stock, modded), and my experience has been that it was noticed. I just want some sort of scientific proof to justify a muffler install on a expensive bike. If it proves to be BS, I will stay stock, and save a couple g's..



THAT is exactly what I would hope for.. :D
 
Hearing something makes you aware of it's existence. Pretty simple.
 

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