Electric bike Redux? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Electric bike Redux?

Quick-charging lithium batteries aren't exactly new, current automotive lithium batteries can take an 80% charge in about 20 min if you have enough charging capacity, although perhaps this takes it to the next level.

But this doesn't change the amount of energy that needs to be transferred in that time, and this is where it quickly becomes impractical.

A 10 kWh storage battery can be charged at 1 kW for 10 hours. 1 kW is about (rough numbers) 9 amps at 110 volts - roughly the capacity of a standard electrical outlet in your house.

Or you can charge it at 10 kW in 1 hour. 10 kW is roughly 45 amps at 220 volts. That is roughly the capacity of the fast-chargers that you can hard-wire into your house to charge electric cars nowadays. It is MORE than a standard 220 volt washing machine or electric stove outlet in your house. If your house has 100 amp service, it's about half the total rated capacity of the incoming electrical service to your house! You are not going to get much faster charging capacity than that without up-rating your incoming electrical service. (It is certainly possible to get more than 100 amp service - but not by an enormous factor, if you are in a normal area with single-phase residential distribution.)

Or, with this new tech, you can charge it at 100 kw for 0.1 hours. Now we are approaching the length of time for a normal gasoline filling station. There is no way you could get that amount of power to a normal residence - but most people would charge overnight, so perhaps this is only needed at the equivalent of a gasoline filling station. But still ... This is about 100 amps 575 volt 3 phase. That's a lot! It's more than you can get from a normal 575 volt welding plug (industrial).

The world will eventually switch over to electric propulsion, I have no doubt of this. But there's some infrastructure issues that have to be taken care of ...
 
"Unlike many other lithium-ion battery advances, this one MIGHT actually hit the market within a couple of years." That's not very encouraging. How does it scale up vs other lithium battery types? Suitability for cars? Throw in NANOSOMETHING TECH and we're done, right? Ugh.

Thanks Brian P for some actual information. Considering the poor track record of people vs high voltages/amps, I hope there's some serious idiot-proofing in the works, both at the consumer and infrastructure levels. The emissions we reduce with electical vehicles better not be replaced with emissions from additional building/car fires.
 
Read and enjoy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

Max charging rate 19.2 kW for this style of charging plug ... doesn't matter what the battery will take if the charging infrastructure can't deliver it.

There are a couple of other competing standards for charging plug (VHS vs Beta all over again). The Euro one is for 3-phase 400V power (standard voltage over there) and can charge at 43kW.

Tesla uses their own plug - they don't state its capacity, but half of an 85 kWh battery in 20 minutes suggests around 120 kW charging rate, this is only at their "supercharger" stations - those cars come with a J1772 adapter for charging (at a slower rate) at public charging stations.
 
Electrical "refueling" needs to be rapid out on the road, but not usually at home. Wouldn't be hard to build special recharging stations with the higher rate of energy flow you describe, I think. That's probably the concept behind Tesla's "superchargers". Even at home, wouldn't it be possible to slowly charge a large capacitor so that whenever you need a quick charge, it's ready?

The questions for me in this new tech is the battery's energy density, with respect to both volume and weight.

On a related note, time to sell your stock in crude: http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-breakthrough-nuclear-fusion-energy?CMP=fb_gu
 
Yeah. That changes everything
1 year to prototype and from a company big enough to do it

The ramifications are astoumding


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Brian P said:
Read and enjoy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

Max charging rate 19.2 kW for this style of charging plug ... doesn't matter what the battery will take if the charging infrastructure can't deliver it.

There are a couple of other competing standards for charging plug (VHS vs Beta all over again). The Euro one is for 3-phase 400V power (standard voltage over there) and can charge at 43kW.

Tesla uses their own plug - they don't state its capacity, but half of an 85 kWh battery in 20 minutes suggests around 120 kW charging rate, this is only at their "supercharger" stations - those cars come with a J1772 adapter for charging (at a slower rate) at public charging stations.
Click to expand...

The point is, now that this is possible, commerce can build the infrastructure. The electrical infrastructure rarely needed these demand, but it is not high tech to do this.

In a country that generates over half of electricity by hydro, this makes sense. The 10,000 charge cycle means these batteries could be used for massive off peak storage of currently wasted energy.

What is impressive is the rate of these discoveries, which is related to countries that are spending on this R&D I. E. Not Canada. No one cared before 6 to 8 years ago.
 
Brian P said:
. If your house has 100 amp service, it's about half the total rated capacity of the incoming electrical service to your house! You are not going to get much faster charging capacity than that without up-rating your incoming electrical service. (It is certainly possible to get more than 100 amp service - but not by an enormous factor, if you are in a normal area with single-phase residential distribution.)
Or, with this new tech, you can charge it at 100 kw for 0.1 hours. Now we are approaching the length of time for a normal gasoline filling station. There is no way you could get that amount of power to a normal residence - but most people would charge overnight, so perhaps this is only needed at the equivalent of a gasoline filling station. But still ... This is about 100 amps 575 volt 3 phase. That's a lot! It's more than you can get from a normal 575 volt welding plug (industrial).

The world will eventually switch over to electric propulsion, I have no doubt of this. But there's some infrastructure issues that have to be taken care of ...
Click to expand...

you are talking from an electrician perspective I think,,as 575v is a very old term as today industry in ontario is 347v.. or also called 600v ... same thing.., but , there is a lot of information you are leaving out.. so most of your facts would be true for a welder , or large stove, type appliance.. a battery has a taper charge rate,, and really changes the electrical characteristic requirements from the supply... and the infrastructure builders have been waiting for this since mid 90's and for sure since 2005 ,,, in most modern subdivision , especial ontario..

Flywheel said:
"
Thanks Brian P for some actual information. Considering the poor track record of people vs high voltages/amps, I hope there's some serious idiot-proofing in the works, both at the consumer and infrastructure levels. The emissions we reduce with electrical vehicles better not be replaced with emissions from additional building/car fires.
Click to expand...

smart chargers have been around for over 30 yrs... used in industrial fork lift battery chargers.. and smaller ones too.. mandated by wsib... for exactly the reason you stated... and EV chargers are smarter than that.. as there is a plan to solve some political problems in actually drawing power from a fully charged car... to supply the grid during a high peak... electrically it can be done fairly easy... but having a simple device for the consumer to allow the car battery to feed the grid, and maintain enough charge to still drive to next planned destination... and get reimbursed thru the meter ,, etc etc..


CafeRay said:
The point is, now that this is possible, commerce can build the infrastructure. The electrical infrastructure rarely needed these demand, but it is not high tech to do this.
In a country that generates over half of electricity by hydro, this makes sense. The 10,000 charge cycle means these batteries could be used for massive off peak storage of currently wasted energy.
What is impressive is the rate of these discoveries, which is related to countries that are spending on this R&D I. E. Not Canada. No one cared before 6 to 8 years ago.
Click to expand...

Hmm,,, I wonder where you get the specs.. I think Hydraulic stations,, or hydroelectric .. are only about 25 percent... not really half... and Ontario certainly has been expecting this to happen ... they quoted the late 90's as being a crisis back in 1983.... as there was predictions all cars would be electric by mid 90's... of course the time line is dragging along

years ago.. I built an EV.. copied ,,, er I got my inspiration from EV from the early 1900's,, once I swapped motor control from resistors to electronic chopper circuits,, and made the motor work.. I lost interest.. due to price of batteries... also that AC drives were becoming popular... and I had a huge hunch that license and insurance mid be a hurdle... that was 1981.. I just scrapped the motors from that project this summer..
recently,, I thought I'd convert something,, especially a motorcycle.. I have seen some cool builds on you tube,, and that was my new inspiration,, along with 2 large cap chargers in the parking lot.. where my boss has a Tesla C .... so presently I could ride for no fuel costs..... but sigh.. I really lost my ambition again with the capitol required to build a bike,, and the probability of insurance hassles...

If you want to chat with EV guys in Ontario,, there are well educated folks at the links thru http://evfest.ca/

[url]http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/electric/
http://evco.ca/site/links
[/URL]
 
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meester_jamie said:
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Hmm,,, I wonder where you get the specs.. I think Hydraulic stations,, or hydroelectric .. are only about 25 percent... not really half... and Ontario certainly has been expecting this to happen ... they quoted the late 90's as being a crisis back in 1983.... as there was predictions all cars would be electric by mid 90's... of course the time line is dragging along
Click to expand...

electricity-fuel-pies1.gif
 
This is even more interesting...

http://www.nature.com/news/the-rechargeable-revolution-a-better-battery-1.14815

In 2012, the JCESR hub won US$120 million from the US Department of Energy to take a leap beyond Li-ion technology. Its stated goal was to make cells that, when scaled up to the sort of commercial battery packs used in electric cars, would be five times more energy dense than the standard of the day, and five times cheaper, in just five years. That means hitting a target of 400 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh kg[SUP]−1[/SUP]) by 2017.

batt2.jpg
 
Electric vehicles are the future, and will be the future for at least the next ten years......
 
You may surprised .....suggest you follow the time line on Charge...

[video=youtube;rogV80QfLYQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rogV80QfLYQ[/video]

4 years later...

this

The Lightning LS-218

Turning the SportBike world upside down
… with electricity.
Lightning Motorcycle has designed and produced a Sportbike sure to change the minds of anyone doubting electric motorcycle performance. The LS-218 is the fastest production motorcycle in the world - gas or electric.
Click to expand...

ls-218-specs-graphic2.jpg


http://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/
 
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crankcall said:
Electric vehicles are the future, and will be the future for at least the next ten years......
Click to expand...

That's hydrogen fuel cells!

Once we get the recharging infrastructure in place, electric vehicles *will* become common place. I have no doubt about it. No, they will not replace all other vehicles for quite a long time. They'll start with some people in some applications - we are already at that point - and build up from there.

Hydrogen fuel cells are dead in the water for various reasons, and always will be. Electric vehicles *can* be used today with the infrastructure that we've got, not everywhere and not all the time and not for everything, but it's doable in some fashion. All we need to do is build the infrastructure out, and we know how to do it, we just need to do it. Hydrogen ... Not so!

Once we have good batteries and good recharging infrastructure in place, hydrogen faces an uphill battle. If you start out with a certain amount of electricity, the most efficient way to propel a vehicle down the road is to charge a battery with it. Hydrogen has to first be made chemically (not a particularly efficient process), then compressed and possibly liquified (very energy intensive, it costs around 30% of the hydrogen's energy content to compress and liquefy it), then distributed (and hydrogen is very difficult to transmit by pipeline, it leaks out everywhere it can), then used in a fuel cell, and only then do you get electricity that you can use to move the vehicle. All those steps are thermodynamically costly as well as financially costly.
 
MacDoc said:
You may surprised .....suggest you follow the time line on Charge...

4 years later...

this

http://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/
Click to expand...

No question a very capable bike .... but you give other companies 40000 USD for a bike and they could probably come up with a very decent electric bike. You still will not be able to use it long enough in a day to have fun .... I would guess that when they ask 20K for it and you'd be actually able to get 300km range out of it (without just cruising) and recharge in say 15-30min time in at least handful of places around GTA, it will be the time when we will talk more about electric bikes. It will also be the time when Honda, KTM etc. will have their own solutions to sell you ... exciting for the future generations.
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