Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it? | Page 7 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

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Outlaws Justice said:
This can be a problem........ That is something that can be fixed.
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Yes it can be, but not one readily fixed. Seems like some places are concerned more with business concerns than the stuff they should be. Theory and practice I guess.
IMHO track/dirt develops technique and seat time goes to perceptual/traffic abilities.
But yes a good/knowlegable coach can be a great help at any level.
 
smergy said:
since the OP asked a legitimate question, I'll try to give an honest answer.


From my experience, the average rider on the road does not have a sufficient level of skill to manage an unexpected scenario. Fundamentally, sending a person to ride around a parking lot for an M1 exit weekend, then setting them free on the road is woefully inadequate. (I have similar distaste for our car licensing system, but that's another story). I see lots of riders with many years of experience, yet insufficient control. As a student of Keith Codes said, they did not have N years of experience, they simply have 1 year of experience N times.


How do we improve control? We improve confidence and skill.Confidence and skill come from understanding a motorcycle's response and limit. How far can I lean? How hard can I accelerate? What about in the rain? How hard can I use the front brakes? These skills need to be reactions, not though-processes. Reactions come from training, just like any sport.


IMO, all advanced motorcycle training should take place at a track, with proper supervision/coaches, medical staff, and leathers. Not in a parking lot. This type of training should be mandatory, regardless of what type of motorcycle you ride. The problem is, how far can you honestly expect someone to ride a motorcycle in an environment without proper safety? Get the guy in jeans on a 800 pound bike to start locking up wheels or finding out where his chrome running boards are in a parking lot? No Thanks. I realize renting a track is expensive, but its the place to go to explore limits. A controlled environment.

Most will sight cost, but cost is relative. When you are lying there in the hospital for a week or a month, how much will you regret not spending the $300? Most riders improve more in 1 day on the track than a year on the street. I encourage all riders, fast or slow to take a day at the track.


The silver lining is skill stays with you for your whole life, regardless of what bike you have. Conversely, it is interesting to see how much people spend on chrome, HIDs, pipes, fuel controlers/etc, but don't invest in skill because it is 'expensive'. Racer 5 offers an excellent program with great value, FAST school is also good.


Not everyone wants to race or do trackdays, and that is perfectly ok.
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No track/racing days get you a break with insurance in the UK, advanced rider courses do though. I would like the same thing here and I've been writing a few letters to see if anything can be done.
 
Outlaws Justice said:
This can be a problem. But it is not an all encompasing one. I know a doctor who is a quack. Does not mean all the others are and so I should not see a doctor if I am ill. I do however agree it is yet another reason why somone might not take training. And if there is a bad instructor out there make sure the organization he or she works with knows. That is something that can be fixed.
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To become a doctor, you go through several years of study, spend a whole load of money, and have to meet requirements of Medical Council of Canada. That's why most doctors actually know what they are doing. They have to be dedicated to go through with it.

To become an instructor at a privately offered course you need exactly nothing. And yes, of course there are good, experienced instructors but what's there to prevent the crappy ones from teaching, aside from (after the fact) negative feedback from frustrated students.
 
DemonPig said:
To become an instructor at a privately offered course you need exactly nothing. And yes, of course there are good, experienced instructors but what's there to prevent the crappy ones from teaching, aside from (after the fact) negative feedback from frustrated students.
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That is not true, at least not here, I had to go through hundreds of hours of training for each program I teach, and every time they make changes we have to go to updates and sometimes re-take our entire training for a program. Also we have continueing education requirements, as instructors, we have to attend workshops, classes and ride on a regular basis. Sometimes there are still those who get through who I would not work with and as an organization we work to weed those out.
 
What DemonPig noted was re: private college.

This applies to ALL private schools. Unlike a sanctioned school where as you note, instructors are legit


Private colleges are a joke.
My ex wife taught social work at 4 different private colleges.
100% them were garbage and nothing but a business.
 
GreyGhost said:
I'm going to throw in potential damage to bike. You have competing problems here, the best bike to learn on is your own, but by definition, you should be pushing some boundaries (the bikes or the riders) in a course to improve. Sometimes when pushing boundaries, things go wrong. Ideally the course would have a fleet that was closely matched to people street bikes (ie some ss, some adv, some sm, some cruisers (big and small) etc.) but that would be prohibitively expensive to build and maintain.
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This has been my primary concern...if advanced courses provided bikes, I'd be more willing
 
Riding and driving is/should be a dynamic activity. Just rolling down the road like you're in your living room and maybe/maybe not looking around isn't something to be satisfied about. One should actively engage the vehicle. I'm surprised every parking lot isn't full of vehicles doing figger 8's, stoppies, drifting, buzzing old ladies etc. in the never ending quest of fine tuning driving acumen. Every gravel road should treated as a rally stage. Get with it.
 
inreb said:
Riding and driving is/should be a dynamic activity. Just rolling down the road like you're in your living room and maybe/maybe not looking around isn't something to be satisfied about. One should actively engage the vehicle. I'm surprised every parking lot isn't full of vehicles doing figger 8's, stoppies, drifting, buzzing old ladies etc. in the never ending quest of fine tuning driving acumen. Every gravel road should treated as a rally stage. Get with it.
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LOL, I try to at least keep my "practice" to the closed course, or private property, don't want to upset the "Little old Ladies" LOL
 
Driving/riding schools in Ontario are essentially unregulated. The result is that some are good, others are not. The specific instructor that you get, can be a crap shoot even if the school in general is good. (It's not specific to motorcycle training, either. Heard many stories about transport truck drivers who can't back into a dock properly ... or who can't inspect their truck properly ...)

Regarding motorcycle training, there have been a few people over the years where I've wondered how the heck they managed to become an instructor, mostly because of relatively short riding experience. I've never been an instructor, because I doubt if I would be good at the teaching part of it. (and not having enough time)

Someone good at the "riding" part isn't necessarily good at the "instructing" part and vice versa.
 
Yup - that's why something like the BMW offroad course which is sponsored by BMW and restricted to a narrow range of machines and conditions would be useful to someone setting off on a Beemer for a round the world adventure.

The instructor is both good and hilarious.
Narrow topics by established instructors - ie say trials riding I'd say are useful

Off road courses of any sort for new riders are invaluable in my view.

Track riding I'm sure has it's own educational process just like sailplanes do.

Street riding courses for experienced riders ....I'm from Missouri as to value.
 
Time, cost, location, shift work, unknown outcomes.

I would like to ask a question, I ride/commute a good amount of time in the rain and have good ties but my back tire starts to skid more often than I like.

Should I be using more front brake, I tend to use minimal amounts of front break in the rain and cope with lower speeds, increased following distances, and engine breaking.

Thanks in advance,
 
My opinion on this topic is maybe a bit unique, but you can't compare taking motorcycle courses to grade 3 education.

Elementary school is free. So is highschool. And that gets the the basic skills you need to get through life.

Additionally, I race motocross and our local clubs (they aren't free) but we offer free motocross schools from beginners to introduce them to the sport all the way up to the more experienced riders, all bring taught by experts (some even professionally sponsored).
So why should people pay to learn?
Yes, some people pay if they wish to exceed standard training or if they want to increase skills to a specific level...

I'd like to see less people trying to profit from others and help people get into the sports instead of trying to make money off of them!
 
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suzuki2000 said:
what's the point in pressing other then trying to embarrass the guy because you "know more" ? You know and I know and many others here know he is counter steering, he just doesn't know it. He would never make it around a bend if he didn't. Courses should be to educate, and teach skills that students can use some of which they may or not be consciously aware of.
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I am not an instuctor. I was there to ride home with a friend taking the course. Some peeps went to tim hortons after the course was over. That is where this conversation took place. This so called rider was dissing what the instructors were teaching. So I asked if he did not counter steer, how do you turn then? And it went south from there.
 
I've had advanced training in most forms of the sport. It's awesome fun and I have no clue why most people don't do it.
 
RedDogDarren said:
I've had advanced training in most forms of the sport. It's awesome fun and I have no clue why most people don't do it.
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I know I can have fun pretty much anywhere on my bike. What specifically did you learn or better yet, what did you find out that you were doing wrong for many years?
While I understand that motorcycles are at a higher risk than cars, the same premise is there... Have you taken advanced safety courses for driving a car?
 
Walms said:
While I understand that motorcycles are at a higher risk than cars, the same premise is there... Have you taken advanced safety courses for driving a car?
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Every Year, as do my kids. If nothing else we get out and practice certain drills, especially in the snow, find a big parking lot with lots of snow and have some fun!
 
Outlaws Justice said:
Every Year, as do my kids. If nothing else we get out and practice certain drills, especially in the snow, find a big parking lot with lots of snow and have some fun!
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I just checked for car schools and the only one I can find is the one just outside of Toronto.
What's the best way to find these things? Including motorcycle. Is the a central repository?

Even the motorcycle classes tend to have different names for advanced courses.
The instructors on one of mine, would travel to different courses in the U.S. And bring back bits and pieces.
Every year the course seemed to evolve. Funny thing about it was that one of the Hog chapters would book a weekend to themselves, and some of them could run circles around the SS riders when they came to an all bikes class.

I've been on several advanced motorcycle courses, and never seen a bad instructor.
They tend to get relegated to setting up cones, and arm waving for the beginner class, if they're not stepping up to the plate.
 
Outlaws Justice said:
Every Year, as do my kids. If nothing else we get out and practice certain drills, especially in the snow, find a big parking lot with lots of snow and have some fun!
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Here, you would be promptly chased off the lot, if not the local popo would surely show and provide you with some lovely infraction, probably a HTA172 if possible :(
 
suzuki2000 said:
Here, you would be promptly chased off the lot, if not the local popo would surely show and provide you with some lovely infraction, probably a HTA172 if possible :(
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This x 100.

Probably just a GTA thing, but have been asked to leave parking lots drifting with the car in snow. Practicing safety maneuvers of course ;)
 
suzuki2000 said:
Here, you would be promptly chased off the lot, if not the local popo would surely show and provide you with some lovely infraction, probably a HTA172 if possible :(
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I get permission, use the lot where I work, or private lots, again with permission (well most of the time anyway!)
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