Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it? | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

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nfq said:
You know what would get me at one of those courses tomorrow?
If it's acknowledged by my insurance company and nets me a 10-20% discount on my insurance.

I'd rather spend $300 on a course than give it to the insurance company. I bet donuts to dollars others would feel the same way. Kind of like the winter tire incentive going around (show you have winter tires, get an insurance discount). So long as there is a balance of discount & Cost, there's good chance for success.
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That's why I took the M1 exit course. The course cost ~$300 and saved me ~$500 the first year. AFAIK, this doesn't apply anymore as the insurance companies assume that most people take the course so the discount is included in everybody's rates (IIRC Viffer or one of the other knowledgeable insurance people said this once).
 
MacDoc said:
What's the last street smarts course YOU took since you think it meet to advise others what they need or don't need. ?
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Yes, you are clearly above average and know everything by now.

The main factor in the 45+ stats is people riding poorly designed bikes. They will continue to buy these bikes because they are over 45 and know everything and are above average. My Dad rocks a Vespa at 84.
 
Brant Bandit said:
I'd take a course, but those insurance bastards took all my money! ;)

Seriously though, money, time, location..........availability. I live in Brantford and I don't think there's anything offered around me that could fit my schedule.
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There are one day classes around (I think in your area) and for those that are not near a dedicated program what about one on one private sessions, those can be tailored to your time, location and schedule?
 
I've taken a lot of advanced rider training, but like a lot of people have mentioned, there has to be some sort of guarantee that it will be worth the time and money to take the course, as well as being able to push the envelope on a bike that isn't yours.

That's why courses like the ones offered by FAST and Trail Tours are so popular, because there are lots of positive reviews out there (a bit of a chicken and egg scenario if you're a new outfit) and they also allow you to take the course on their own bikes, which they prep and maintain.

I don't agree that experience and researching on your own will make you a better rider. There's value in having a knowledgeable and trained person observe what you're doing and give you feedback. Regardless of how much reading you do, ultimately you won't know if you're doing it right or wrong because you don't have the experience and you can't see yourself doing it.
 
Lightcycle said:
That's why courses like the ones offered by FAST and Trail Tours are so popular, because there are lots of positive reviews out there (a bit of a chicken and egg scenario if you're a new outfit) and they also allow you to take the course on their own bikes, which they prep and maintain.

I don't agree that experience and researching on your own will make you a better rider. There's value in having a knowledgeable and trained person observe what you're doing and give you feedback. Regardless of how much reading you do, ultimately you won't know if you're doing it right or wrong because you don't have the experience and you can't see yourself doing it.
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I have been to trail tours for the Trials class, but on that note I would have taken my own bike if I had a trials bike. I did take my CRF for riding after I was done with the class. Did some amazing trail riding as the area is so huge.

I also agree with your last statement, you cant see yourself and an experienced watchful, trained eye is important.
 
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I'm probably too stubborn to take a course. I probably feel if I need somebody to point out the obvious I probably shouldn't be on the road. Would you take an advanced pedestrian course? I can walk thru a crowded space all day without bushing up against anybody or doing a weird dance move. I see a lot of others can't do that. I hope that explains it.
 
nfq said:
I'd rather spend $300 on a course than give it to the insurance company.
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It's actually $500. I seriously considered sacrificing a weekend for "it", I almost booked but when it totaled to $500 (tax and ****), I had second thoughts.

I could afford it, but, was it worth it ? What am I going to get for that amount of money ? Somehow I feel that for that amount I should be able to get something like 5 hours of 1 on 1 instruction (versus 1 to 3 or whatever ratio happens to be).

I know I could get a track day with all gear and bike included for that money. I also know what you get out of that, training wise. Would I get more from a parking lot class ? I'm not sure and not willing to pay $500 to find out. Maybe if I'm already willing to spend 5 hours in a parking lot, I can read "the book" and practice for free. Sure I wont get feedback, and I won't minimize the value of that. My issue is that on that price point ($500 out of pocket) I'm just not convinced that I would get sufficient return.
 
Lightcycle said:
I don't agree that experience and researching on your own will make you a better rider. There's value in having a knowledgeable and trained person observe what you're doing and give you feedback. Regardless of how much reading you do, ultimately you won't know if you're doing it right or wrong because you don't have the experience and you can't see yourself doing it.
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Depends on the rider, otherwise the teachers couldn't have developed new/better techniques to begin with. True, fewer people have that sort of expert insight and the reflexes to implement them, but practice and experience are meaningful, IMO.

Personally, I'm skeptical of "advanced" courses since they all skew towards somewhat specialized things. You do all sorts of racing and can teach me to drag a knee at 200 km/h? Not relevant considering my budget/bike (though it would sure be cool). Same goes for offroad/mx/trials--VERY cool stuff, but without even a gravel road within 100km of where I live, another expensive hobby. Getting too old/poor for that.

What *I* want is proper urban rider training. How to be smooth in the dark, in the rain, around nasty traffic, when I'm tired, when the temperature drops. How to master my temper and temper my judgement. That's basically 99.9% of my riding and risk! Investing time and money (both limited) into becoming a slightly less lame racer/offroader isn't sensible to me.
 
I took an offroad course and attended a track day this summer,and yes, i ride a beemer. Both were valuable experiences in their own way. Perhaps aside from the cost some riders just might be un-easy with how poor their skills are compared to others. But that wasn't the way the classes went. I started the day as one of those MTO trucks with flashing arrows to one of the quickest of 25 by the end of the day. Don't let your ego get in your own way. I'll can't wait to take a few more next year.
 
Flywheel said:
Depends on the rider, otherwise the teachers couldn't have developed new/better techniques to begin with. True, fewer people have that sort of expert insight and the reflexes to implement them, but practice and experience are meaningful, IMO.

Personally, I'm skeptical of "advanced" courses since they all skew towards somewhat specialized things. You do all sorts of racing and can teach me to drag a knee at 200 km/h? Not relevant considering my budget/bike (though it would sure be cool). Same goes for offroad/mx/trials--VERY cool stuff, but without even a gravel road within 100km of where I live, another expensive hobby. Getting too old/poor for that.

What *I* want is proper urban rider training. How to be smooth in the dark, in the rain, around nasty traffic, when I'm tired, when the temperature drops. How to master my temper and temper my judgement. That's basically 99.9% of my riding and risk! Investing time and money (both limited) into becoming a slightly less lame racer/offroader isn't sensible to me.
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Agreed. I don't want to learn about achieving the perfect line or how to put my knee down. I'd rather learn skills that will help my survive my commute through Brampton.

I am interested in some low speed control though. I think that would be a useful skill to increase for urban riding
 
I've taken the Humber Course with Pedro four or five times.

There's a HOG chapter that was taking it every year.

It was $200. I'd still be taking it, but I moved.
I had a bike issue at the course here, and haven't ridden too much this year.

As for reasoning, it's mostly apathy. The same reason I haven't taken a winter driving course.
By the time I find out about one, it's already over, and I can't seem to be bothered to find one ahead of time.

Everyone vastly overestimates their abilities for the street. They like to criticize others and complain about their skills, but are completely unwilling to admit that they're also bad, and need improvement.

The expectation is that everyone who rides, is in the top 1% of driving ability, with just riding lots.
Eventually, the reality comes crashing home.
 
Location, location, location. Nothing I've found in London. Would love to take dirt and track courses, but would need to travel 3 hrs each way (ish) to take them. Was thinking about grand bend, but it doesn't look like there are actually classes or rentals there.
 
The M1 exit course was crap, didn't learn anything I didn't already know from riding in the dirt since I was young (I can understand you relating it to grade 3. I'm surprised that they let people on the road after taking it). Taking an advanced course is expensive and it's also the fact that I'm worried if it's actually worth my while. It would be nice to take a track course, but what road course would actually help someone who rides 30+ thousand km per season? (No commuting, all touring and very spirited rides on the good roads). Seen and dealt with a lot of crap on the roads, especially this season. Not surprised we have had so many fatalities.
 
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If improving your riding is the objective, fast and racer5 are in ontario already. If you want to survive on the street, you need to know that people in cars don't care if you are there. They will pull out in front of you, cut you off on purpose, and try to wipe you out. I'm not sure how to teach this. On bike in a parking lot will not teach you that cagers want to kill you.
 
Flywheel said:
What *I* want is proper urban rider training. How to be smooth in the dark, in the rain, around nasty traffic, when I'm tired, when the temperature drops. How to master my temper and temper my judgement. That's basically 99.9% of my riding and risk! Investing time and money (both limited) into becoming a slightly less lame racer/offroader isn't sensible to me.
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So many people tell you to "Be Smooth" ok, I'll bite, what does that mean?

Instead of telling someone to be smooth give them the tools to be smooth, show them the things they can control, how to control them and they will become smooth. It starts with Vision, Throttle and brakes, and moves forward from there.

You cannot just tell someone to be smooth, if they knew how they already would be.


Even When I teach the basic stuff, You have to work on vision before the rest works

1. Vision controls everything we do on a motorcycle. this includes throttle, braking and turning.
a.) throttle and brakes effect the suspension (so in turn in many aspects vision has an effect on suspension)
2. Body position has a great impact on vision (So does fear and your mental state)
a.) Moving around on the bike also has an impact on Suspension so we don't want to do it while in the turn)
3. Throttle and brakes or a combination of can be used to change your line in a turn, Yes you can Tighten your line using the brakes as well as making the bike run wide, it is how they are used that has the impact. (these are not newby skills)
a.) Trail braking (Is not impacted by linked brakes as it can be done with either brake or both)
b.) trail braking allows you to make changes to the brakes or throttle with very little reaction time and also without upsetting the bikes suspension.

Everything you think you need, can be gained from the right class. Search and maybe talk to others.
 
Outlaws Justice said:
1. Vision controls everything we do on a motorcycle. this includes throttle, braking and turning.
a.) throttle and brakes effect the suspension (so in turn in many aspects vision has an effect on suspension)
2. Body position has a great impact on vision (So does fear and your mental state)
a.) Moving around on the bike also has an impact on Suspension so we don't want to do it while in the turn)
3. Throttle and brakes or a combination of can be used to change your line in a turn, Yes you can Tighten your line using the brakes as well as making the bike run wide, it is how they are used that has the impact. (these are not newby skills)
a.) Trail braking (Is not impacted by linked brakes as it can be done with either brake or both)
b.) trail braking allows you to make changes to the brakes or throttle with very little reaction time and also without upsetting the bikes suspension.
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I seriously doubt you can ingrain that in one afternoon in a parking lot. Yes, that could create awareness of these fundamentals but so could a ribbon campaign. For a fresh noob any amount of proper training has to be a good thing but for an accident free rider of 10-30 yrs? Yes, I've seen old hands wobbling around on hogs and such going half the posted speed limit. Are they going to become advanced riders all of a sudden?
 
inreb said:
I seriously doubt you can ingrain that in one afternoon in a parking lot. Yes, that could create awareness of these fundamentals but so could a ribbon campaign. For a fresh noob any amount of proper training has to be a good thing but for an accident free rider of 10-30 yrs? Yes, I've seen old hands wobbling around on hogs and such going half the posted speed limit. Are they going to become advanced riders all of a sudden?
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maybe, maybe Not, here is a piece of a letter from one of my Students

[FONT=&quot]"I took the class this past Saturday at Howard county community college. I am a relatively new rider and have been riding for about a year. I have had great teachers and have been a decent enough rider for the amount of seat time I have had.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I had some major cornering issues when I came the class to the extent that I wouldn't even take a curve at regular car speed. I would freeze when I saw a curve. Let me just say that after the one class, I took curves at almost 3 times the speed I used to take them at and managed to shock the people I usually ride with. The class also gave me a new found confidence and trust in my bike, ability and gear. I went back and forth for a while about taking the class and it was the best money I have ever spent."[/FONT]
 
inreb said:
I seriously doubt you can ingrain that in one afternoon in a parking lot.
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Actually, this brings up a good point for me as well. Aside from the mostly prohibitive costs (that I have seen so far) and time aside, I particularly have a bad short term memory so too much squeezed into one or two days isn't going to work for me. So in the end, some things are going to be wasted on me and that just ends up leading to more costs, making it even more cost prohibitive to get the same value out of the course(s).
 
Outlaws Justice said:
maybe, maybe Not, here is a piece of a letter from one of my Students

"I took the class this past Saturday at Howard county community college. I am a relatively new rider and have been riding for about a year. I have had great teachers and have been a decent enough rider for the amount of seat time I have had.


I had some major cornering issues when I came the class to the extent that I wouldn't even take a curve at regular car speed. I would freeze when I saw a curve. Let me just say that after the one class, I took curves at almost 3 times the speed I used to take them at and managed to shock the people I usually ride with. The class also gave me a new found confidence and trust in my bike, ability and gear. I went back and forth for a while about taking the class and it was the best money I have ever spent."
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Sure, major cornering issues after one year riding would be a good candidate for additional instruction. This may be asking to much but I feel people need to self identify their training requirements. Clearly some people could use it. OTOH, to mildly shame long time riders into feeling they're somehow not "getting it" just to butter your own bread seems a little off putting. That's what it comes across like, whether intentional or not.
 
inreb said:
I seriously doubt you can ingrain that in one afternoon in a parking lot. Yes, that could create awareness of these fundamentals but so could a ribbon campaign. For a fresh noob any amount of proper training has to be a good thing but for an accident free rider of 10-30 yrs? Yes, I've seen old hands wobbling around on hogs and such going half the posted speed limit. Are they going to become advanced riders all of a sudden?
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I love road trips. Highway 7 to Ottawa tends to be pretty docile in terms of traffic (especially when cold), and leaves you a lot of opportunity to "try this, and try that".
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