i took track/race school and have done several track days. Seemed redundant to take advanced rider street training, though I realize they're not 100% the same. I am open to have my mind changed though.
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Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?
- Thread starter Outlaws Justice
- Start date
ddusseld
Well-known member
I'm quoting you but I don't mean to pick on you... 
This is the reason a lot of riders would give. To some, the number of km's ridden somehow equate to skill. Very few of these "experienced" riders would not benefit greatly from an advanced riders course. I do ten's of thousands of km annually and ride 9 months of the year. I've taken many an advanced rider course (track and parking lot) and I'm always either learning something or finding out I've developed bad habits and improving. Two years ago I took a BMW course at Shannonville. It was 1/2 skills, 1/2 track time. Excellent use of time and money. Good instructors who really noticed what you were doing and could tell you how to improve. I especially enjoy doing slow speed maneuvers as I tend to be weak in this area. After the skills we got to lap around the FABI circuit to get the feel for our bikes near the limit. It was also great fun to see guys ripping around the track with full luggage....
To me, if you have the money, there is no real excuse for not doing on going training....
I guess to answer the op's question, the only excuse would be money. If you don't have the money how can you do the training...
This is the reason a lot of riders would give. To some, the number of km's ridden somehow equate to skill. Very few of these "experienced" riders would not benefit greatly from an advanced riders course. I do ten's of thousands of km annually and ride 9 months of the year. I've taken many an advanced rider course (track and parking lot) and I'm always either learning something or finding out I've developed bad habits and improving. Two years ago I took a BMW course at Shannonville. It was 1/2 skills, 1/2 track time. Excellent use of time and money. Good instructors who really noticed what you were doing and could tell you how to improve. I especially enjoy doing slow speed maneuvers as I tend to be weak in this area. After the skills we got to lap around the FABI circuit to get the feel for our bikes near the limit. It was also great fun to see guys ripping around the track with full luggage....
To me, if you have the money, there is no real excuse for not doing on going training....
I guess to answer the op's question, the only excuse would be money. If you don't have the money how can you do the training...
It depends on what I expect to get out of the training. I've done the intro street course, a track school and an off road thing.
The track school and the off road tour both offered great experiences (which is what I wanted) and were well worth the money. However, neither significantly improved my street riding - there simply wasn't enough seat time to do that. As others have mentioned, a class is nice but it has to be backed by a lot of practice to have any effect. Improving my street riding wasn't really the point with either of these courses, though. They offered a unique experience that I couldn't get elsewhere.
The other factor with advanced training is how specific it is. If I know nothing about a topic then general educational courses are fine, but usually the course is trying to serve too large of an audience with too widely varying skill or knowledge sets. This is true of any education, not just motorcycle training. The more specific the training is, the less likely you'll end up yawning and waiting for the class to get to the good stuff. So in that sense a trials class, wheelie school or braking clinic is preferable to a general 'advanced riding' course.
The track school and the off road tour both offered great experiences (which is what I wanted) and were well worth the money. However, neither significantly improved my street riding - there simply wasn't enough seat time to do that. As others have mentioned, a class is nice but it has to be backed by a lot of practice to have any effect. Improving my street riding wasn't really the point with either of these courses, though. They offered a unique experience that I couldn't get elsewhere.
The other factor with advanced training is how specific it is. If I know nothing about a topic then general educational courses are fine, but usually the course is trying to serve too large of an audience with too widely varying skill or knowledge sets. This is true of any education, not just motorcycle training. The more specific the training is, the less likely you'll end up yawning and waiting for the class to get to the good stuff. So in that sense a trials class, wheelie school or braking clinic is preferable to a general 'advanced riding' course.
Motorcycle Mike
Well-known member
I didn't mean you specifically, but I used you as an example.
I generally don't sign up for any services as I've been disappointed too many times with over promising and under delivering.
In my past life I was a teacher. I taught English even though I don't have an English degree, although I do have a couple degrees. I also taught a masters communication class even though I have never taken a similar class, I do have a masters though... see where I'm going with this? Everyday people try to do what they have no business doing (not saying you are, I don't know you).
I also completed the humber instructor course, but I never became a motorcycle instructor because I didn't want to sacrifice so many weekends. The number of people in that class that had minimal riding experience yet were becoming instructors was appalling.
So why haven't I taken advanced training? Because I don't trust people and don't expect I'll get my money's worth.
Instead, in the area I need training the most, off road riding, I ride with a group of guys who are more experienced than I am. Some of them also run the occasional training course. I watch what they do, see what works and what doesn't, and learn as I go. It seems to work well enough for me. Learn by watching and doing.
+1 Time, cost and specified training.
There is a limited number of riding days (pleasurable riding days, not commuting to work riding days) in the year, combined with many of the other factors listed in this thread. Those that want to learn more or want to improve their skills can do so in a non-formal class setting, through watching videos, reading books, learning from experienced friends. I know I don't always have time for extra courses, but I do practice my slow-speed and emergency braking skills in a parking lot regularly through-out the season.
There is no 'one size fits all' for advanced training, as different riding styles and purposes, want different things. Continuous improvement is up to the individual rider. Sometimes that's just more seat time.
This will depend on what training you choose and what that entails. In this area it is up to each individual to search out what they want and find what will work for them. So back to the question.
We worry about the Time the training takes, or the cost, but we dont seem to worry about the time a crash takes from our other responsibiiities, our family and work or the cost to us, lost work, repairs etc.
This is a very common opinion, but unfortunately explains why 45+ riders are the largest growing segment of fatalities. Men over 45 think they know everything they will ever need to know.
This bothers me as well. Here is seems riders who can complete the Basic Course are fully qualified to teach it and some times (More than I like to admit) we have riders with "basic Skills" teaching new riders. To me this is like having someone who graduated the third grade now teaching next years third graders. And to me it is not acceptable.
well - never dropped a bike on pavement except in winter riding in ice and snow to uni.
50 years this year riding motorcycles on road and off.
I know ENOUGH to stay safe and I still ride off road and touring and I understand my limits and use appropriate gear for what I'm doing.
Perhaps it's the younger riders that need the training because they simply do not have the judgement or the saddletime.....with good judgement being the key..
Most over 45 riders that get killed have not been riding long.....some sort of a middle aged fantasy and they buy inappropriate bikes thanks to our archaic insurance and licencing regime.
We have thousands of Burgman riders on the BUSA forum from all over the world .....one death that we could find.
Experience pays.
Deaths here?? ...it's a litany.....
Reasons deaths are up on the over 45
A) they are the ones that can afford expensive machines
B) they are returning to riding or new riders fulfilling some wish
C) they remain the biggest cohort of the population.
Getting near 50% of the population.
People in their 30's to 40s are having kids and often not riding.
There are are few younger people riding - there are fewer of them, bikes are expensive, insurance in Ontario is expensive.
What's the last street smarts course YOU took since you think it meet to advise others what they need or don't need. ?
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I have and continue to take classes and learn more, If you really want to know I took a Trials bike class in Ontario last year, Also took a track day class in Indiana Last fall and am trying to get into a program in the South for next year.
Again this is not about ME, I am trying to determine why riders do not take training. so lets keep this on topic please.
Lee Park's Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic ?
http://sharpridermotorcycletraining.com/
gammaguy21
Well-known member
Pretty much this. The only other thing I would add is convenience. Needs to be easy to get to.
The model needs to change if you want to reach the masses. The workshop model that Rescue outlined where you could go somewhere nearby, on a re-occurring basis, cheap with not a big time commitment is a good one.
I used to teach a formal class where I had a good number of people attending. Once I stopped that I couldn't give it up... so I rented a cheap room at a community center, charged a minimal fee and had a ton of people. Way more people attended than the formal class I taught.
suzuki2000
Well-known member
watching and reading some responses, it is enlightening. there are many reasons why people don't take the course, cost, time, convenience,... all right or wrong reasons
The counter argument is safety, capabilities, skill development,...
all of these can be developed in/out of a controlled environment. Mistakes will happen on course and on the road, you might crash badly or not it may be entirely in your control or minimally. there are a vast amount of factors both within control and outside the control of the rider
The thing is, that each individual must assess there own risk and make decisions to take a course to possibly avoid a crash, buy better gear to survive a crash, or choose to not ride eliminates the possibility of a crash entirely.
Selling safety isn't glamorous and wont create the line ups the school is seeking. motorcyclists by nature are risk takers, otherwise you would take a car or the bus, fact is it is just safer.
If I were taking a course, I would be seeking to achieve one of the following:
- skill development
- experiencing an event with:
- limited/controlled risk to myself
- limited risk to my property
Can a person come out to one of your courses and participate as a spectator? i know this is a liability issue, but perhaps if people could see what they would be getting it would drive sign ups?
you are competing for hard earned $'s for what is by and large a recreational activity, that most people already pay a large cost of entry
I think many have told you why they may not have taken yours or another course, perhaps you can market why they should take yours or another course, but remember like I said sell the sizzle not the steak, the safety angle probably isn't the best advertising pitch, it is a residual effect of the course(s)
The counter argument is safety, capabilities, skill development,...
all of these can be developed in/out of a controlled environment. Mistakes will happen on course and on the road, you might crash badly or not it may be entirely in your control or minimally. there are a vast amount of factors both within control and outside the control of the rider
The thing is, that each individual must assess there own risk and make decisions to take a course to possibly avoid a crash, buy better gear to survive a crash, or choose to not ride eliminates the possibility of a crash entirely.
Selling safety isn't glamorous and wont create the line ups the school is seeking. motorcyclists by nature are risk takers, otherwise you would take a car or the bus, fact is it is just safer.
If I were taking a course, I would be seeking to achieve one of the following:
- skill development
- experiencing an event with:
- limited/controlled risk to myself
- limited risk to my property
Can a person come out to one of your courses and participate as a spectator? i know this is a liability issue, but perhaps if people could see what they would be getting it would drive sign ups?
you are competing for hard earned $'s for what is by and large a recreational activity, that most people already pay a large cost of entry
I think many have told you why they may not have taken yours or another course, perhaps you can market why they should take yours or another course, but remember like I said sell the sizzle not the steak, the safety angle probably isn't the best advertising pitch, it is a residual effect of the course(s)
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Thanks Suzuki2000
I am not trying to sell any class or program here with this thread, but to answer your questions, Every class I teach, spectators are more than welcome, I only ask that you do not interfer with the class or the coaching, and I will always do my best to answer questions.
I am trying to see what things we can do in the bigger picture to help get people training that might help reduce accidents and fatalities.
I am not trying to sell any class or program here with this thread, but to answer your questions, Every class I teach, spectators are more than welcome, I only ask that you do not interfer with the class or the coaching, and I will always do my best to answer questions.
I am trying to see what things we can do in the bigger picture to help get people training that might help reduce accidents and fatalities.
You know what would get me at one of those courses tomorrow?
If it's acknowledged by my insurance company and nets me a 10-20% discount on my insurance.
I'd rather spend $300 on a course than give it to the insurance company. I bet donuts to dollars others would feel the same way. Kind of like the winter tire incentive going around (show you have winter tires, get an insurance discount). So long as there is a balance of discount & Cost, there's good chance for success.
And in Canada where insurance is so high this could be a good thing for riders!
Brant Bandit
Well-known member
I'd take a course, but those insurance bastards took all my money!
Seriously though, money, time, location..........availability. I live in Brantford and I don't think there's anything offered around me that could fit my schedule.
Seriously though, money, time, location..........availability. I live in Brantford and I don't think there's anything offered around me that could fit my schedule.
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