Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

Outlaws Justice

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In my Free time I teach all types of motorsports at many levels, Dirt, Street, Track etc. I have been involved in Motorsports Education for 20 years and over the years I have noticed it has always been very difficult to get riders to participate or take any type of training once they learn how to ride, and many do not get training to learn how to ride in the first place either.

I know that some groups are more likely to search out rider training programs, advanced training programs and participate in training than others, ie. from my experience BMW riders tend to be represented in advanced riding classes way above the average and disproportionately in relation to the numbers of bikes sold and on the road. In some Classes they can account for almost 1/3 of the riders in advanced classes. (It does vary by region)

So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?

I like to equate rider training to our formal education, completion of the Basic classes like the MSF BRC is about the same as graduating from the 3rd grade. You did not quite school after the third grade but most riders tend to be of the opinion that the 3rd grade level of rider education is enough. There is so much more out there that can make you a better rider, and in turn might actually even save your life, so what prevents you from wanting to be better? I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossi you can be better, so again whats the deal?

I am looking for the honest opinions of those who have not taken training, maybe you thought about it but just never did? Again why? Advanced training?? There is so much out there what is holding you back?
 
in my humble opinion...

The reality is this:
- cost prohibitive - $
- time prohibitive - dedicating a weekend (not everyone works Mon- Fri)
- competing interests - kids, responsibilities, work

none on their own should be an excuse, but combinations of the above create a greater challenge.

Given unlimited resources of time and money, there are probably a dozen "courses" I would love to take.
 
in my humble opinion...

The reality is this:
- cost prohibitive - $
- time prohibitive - dedicating a weekend (not everyone works Mon- Fri)
- competing interests - kids, responsibilities, work

Pretty much what he said. I understand the value in some of these programs but the cost can be too much for the regular joe. Time is also another big issue for me. I definitely want to take one in the future but right now it's not feasible.
 
Just like previously stated, cost and time. When I was in California visiting a friend we went to an abandoned parking lot and paid a former instuctor $20 each . Limited to 10 riders . After work 4 hours and learned different techniques each night. Emergency braking, sweeping turns knee touch, etc. It was great. Low cost, low time investment. Tons of riding in and we all bounced ideas off each other.
If you didnt like next days class or next weeks class , you just didnt come. Guys were lined up to take the classes and were willing to pay more than $20.
 
I'd rather spend the equivalent time riding and the equivalent money on other motorcycle gear.

IF I were going after something such as track riding or serious off road I might consider it but for casual riding...it's not a priority at all.

No amount of training will turn the 5k a year fair weather rider into an experienced rider riding 9 months and tens of thousands of km annually.

If I were a street rider moving to a BMW adventure bike and looking to take it off pavement...the BMW course might appeal - at least it teaches how to handle an overweight dual sport ;)

For new riders my first advice would be take an off road riding course then a pavement course.
If not feasible then the on road course is a faint substitute but should be mandatory.
 
I'm going to throw in potential damage to bike. You have competing problems here, the best bike to learn on is your own, but by definition, you should be pushing some boundaries (the bikes or the riders) in a course to improve. Sometimes when pushing boundaries, things go wrong. Ideally the course would have a fleet that was closely matched to people street bikes (ie some ss, some adv, some sm, some cruisers (big and small) etc.) but that would be prohibitively expensive to build and maintain.
 
In my Free time I teach all types of motorsports at many levels, Dirt, Street, Track etc. I have been involved in Motorsports Education for 20 years and over the years I have noticed it has always been very difficult to get riders to participate or take any type of training once they learn how to ride, and many do not get training to learn how to ride in the first place either.

I know that some groups are more likely to search out rider training programs, advanced training programs and participate in training than others, ie. from my experience BMW riders tend to be represented in advanced riding classes way above the average and disproportionately in relation to the numbers of bikes sold and on the road. In some Classes they can account for almost 1/3 of the riders in advanced classes. (It does vary by region)

So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?

I like to equate rider training to our formal education, completion of the Basic classes like the MSF BRC is about the same as graduating from the 3rd grade. You did not quite school after the third grade but most riders tend to be of the opinion that the 3rd grade level of rider education is enough. There is so much more out there that can make you a better rider, and in turn might actually even save your life, so what prevents you from wanting to be better? I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossi you can be better, so again whats the deal?

I am looking for the honest opinions of those who have not taken training, maybe you thought about it but just never did? Again why? Advanced training?? There is so much out there what is holding you back?

Time and location.

I took initial rider training, because it's offered at hundreds of locations and you can pick a location and schedule to fit yours.
 
Anyone can make excuses not do these courses. The reality is that people are all above average in their minds and possess mad skillz.
 
So I sat and thought about your question for a while and come up with several reasons while I never made it to advance training courses. In the early stages of my riding career it was all about cost...when I started at 16 right into my early 20's I was happy just being able to afford riding ei insurance/fuel/tires/gear. Now as I've become much more financially comfortable it comes down to time. I do shift work, schedules change all the time which makes it hard to register/commit to a set date in advance. That being said, Its also never been really high on my priority list...I've always thought about these types of courses as a fun little thing to do rather than a must.
 
True.

I've taken a few courses, worth the time and money IMHO. But realistically people can't continue to keep taking courses all the time and the reality is nothing beats practice and or experience as pointed out by MacDoc.





Anyone can make excuses not do these courses. The reality is that people are all above average in their minds and possess mad skillz.
 
True.

I've taken a few courses, worth the time and money IMHO. But realistically people can't continue to keep taking courses all the time and the reality is nothing beats practice and or experience as pointed out by MacDoc.

It took a track course for me to realize that 18 years of "experience" was just repeating the same mistakes over and over.

These courses should be free, funded by the MTO and the multi-billion dollar insurance industry, but that assumes they actually give a sh-t about riders or safety.
 
As a new rider, and the "type" that like advance driving (8 years of autox in the 4-wheeler: READ: cheap at $30 for 8am-4pm, a handful a month in the spring/summer which I can just show up at). CHEAP may be the reason... as with commitment. Both required in order to facilitate booking a parking lot/instructor--in my eyes, the antithesis of why we ride.

That said, my time on the bike is pressured as is (not enough of it), and if I spend the time and money on arranging for a course--that's time and money that I could be utilizing on planning a roadtrip somewhere outside of the GTA.

If I could pay someone to arrange a "strict, supervised, and followed by a seasoned pro" group ride of sorts to a massive cottage or the likes to to improve on riding skills, I think I would.. but then again, I imagine the cost involved with paying a veteran rider with teaching abilities for a minimum of 36-48 hours + food and lodging (airbnb?) will make it cost prohibitive for most, and at best, a once a year/every-other-year type of deal.
 
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True.

I've taken a few courses, worth the time and money IMHO. But realistically people can't continue to keep taking courses all the time and the reality is nothing beats practice and or experience as pointed out by MacDoc.


I think the greatest good obtaining from periodic training, both refresher and new content, is simply the attitude fostered while taking a class. You're there to become a better rider. You're consciously trying new things or trying to further perfect old skills. Of course you can do those things in your every day riding, and it's a smart rider who does. But the formal teaching setting of being in a class seems to focus most people, especially me, more clearly on the learning process, and I think we get better results quicker than in a more casual approach.

Consider, how well would most of us be in the 3 R's (I know, I know, only one of them starts with R!) if we hadn't had teachers and schools to help us learn but had just been sat down with a book and told, "go for it!" Plainly we needed the formal settings of classes and instructors to gains those skills and perfect them. Why should learning how to ride be handled any differently?
 
I have to be shi77y at something.

Stupid and jokes aside, priorities, cost, and location/time. Most people put a lot more km's on their cars than they do bikes, yet they suck at driving and never take any courses there. People spend 40+ hours a week at work, yet very few take courses to further their careers and rely solely on experience. You eat 3x a day, how many have taken a cooking course? Now onto cost. Bike, gear, maintenance, insurance, and tickets can stretch people pretty thin. Telling our wives that we're going to drop another $1k a year, probably not going to work out so well. BMW riders make up a disproportionate amount, maybe because they have more disposable income, the bike is quite expensive, makes sense. Or, they bought the bike used with no manual and came to the class in the hopes that someone could teach them how to use all the electronics. Finally location/time. With a wife and two small kids, trailering a bike 200kms, riding a weekend, and then trailering again for 200kms is prohibitive. Every other Sunday morning I hit up a parking lot for an hour and practice there before my family wakes up. It's not ideal, but that's all the time I can afford to dedicate. However, if you built a track in Guelph, I'd be less unwilling to sacrifice a little family time.
 
For me it's just cost and nothing else. Most of these courses tend to be $300-500 and that is just too much. If they were $100 I'd do it.
 
For me, like most others, cost would be the #1 factor.

Also high up on the list though is knowing I am going to get value for my money.

I see you say you do this in your free time and have been active in motorcycle education for 20 years, but what real experience and qualifications do you have?

I would take offroad training by an ex top enduro racer or a dakkar racer, but for just someone who has been involved in the education for 20 years, I am not sure I would be getting my money's worth.
 
I have to be shi77y at something.

Stupid and jokes aside, priorities, cost, and location/time. Most people put a lot more km's on their cars than they do bikes, yet they suck at driving and never take any courses there. People spend 40+ hours a week at work, yet very few take courses to further their careers and rely solely on experience. You eat 3x a day, how many have taken a cooking course?

This is not the average population. I've constantly been re-training for my job and I have taken several cooking course over the years, and when I got my car license, I took formal training. Insurance savings was the reason for it.

I've also taken formal motorcycle mechanics course, bicycle mechanics courses, computer programming, etc.
 
For me, like most others, cost would be the #1 factor.

Also high up on the list though is knowing I am going to get value for my money.

I see you say you do this in your free time and have been active in motorcycle education for 20 years, but what real experience and qualifications do you have?

I would take offroad training by an ex top enduro racer or a dakkar racer, but for just someone who has been involved in the education for 20 years, I am not sure I would be getting my money's worth.

Me? I am not a top racer, although I have learned from a few. You need to think of it like this, most professional sports players are great players but NOT good coaches? Why because it takes different things to be a coach. Even Tiger woods has a coach, you never heard of him, his job is to make Tiger a better Golfer and he does it very well or you would not know who Tiger woods was.

I have trained for years, gone to school to be a coach, learn how to coach, what to look for and how to make riders better. I have been trained by some pretty well respected riders, racers and instructors, I do ride all types of bikes in all environments, I compete in Enduro's, Ride Track Days, even tour, Adventure, and MX. I look for and always try to improve my riding as well as my teaching.

This thread is not about me, it is about all Riders and why are they not participating in advanced rider training.
 

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