Custom Bobber - Legal questions | GTAMotorcycle.com

Custom Bobber - Legal questions

Morrissey

Morrissey

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I've been toying with the idea of building a Custom bobber, specifically a Yamaha XS650 bobber. Lots of support and great hard tail kits out there etc. I deal with a great shop who can connect me with the various services I will need to get the bike built right, but my questions are more about the legality of these bikes.

1) Certification. I know there can be a big difference between how strict vs how lenient shops can be around certifying a bike. I know some shops will measure the distance between turn signals, size of signal lights, brightness, kick stand safety switch, indicator lights on the dash, thumb kill switch etc. Obviously if you're building a bobber many of these things mandated by the MTO will be absent from the bike. Even if I certified the bike first, then did all the modifications, how likely am I to be able to safety the bike in the future if I decide to sell?

2) Insurance. I know every time I renew my insurance or get new insurance, they always ask if the bike has been modified in any way. Obviously cutting the frame in half and having a hard tail welded on constitutes "modifying" the bike. So, what do you tell them? If you're honest up front and they deny covering the bike, you're screwed. If you "forget" to mention it and have a claim and they find out the bike had been modified, they can deny my claim based on not providing accurate information, again, screwed.

This all seems to be murky territory with many pit falls. If there is anyone on here who has waded into these waters before and come out the other side I'd love to hear from you. Any advice etc you can share, especially regarding the safety/certification and insurance side of things would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
 
Morrissey said:
2) Insurance. I know every time I renew my insurance or get new insurance, they always ask if the bike has been modified in any way. Obviously cutting the frame in half and having a hard tail welded on constitutes "modifying" the bike.

This all seems to be murky territory with many pit falls.

Cheers
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Have nothing constructive to add at this point but just want to say I'm glad you posed this question and will be watching this thread. All my bikes have been modified to some degree and I always feel the insurance angle could be an issue. Have not gotten a straight answer on that yet. Cheers to you as well.
 
1. Legally? Not very.

2. You're screwed. That doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of people won't chance it anyway. (by telling the insurance co the bike is stock).
 
Some of my best customers are custom bobbers. It seems they take the approach that aesthetics are everything, and start removing equipment to suit their taste. Most of them will modify after the certification, so they don't risk the shop denying their cert. The insurance thing is a bigger risk that I personally wouldn't take. It's not the claim for repairs or replacement that worries me, but the coverage for loss of life, etc.
 
Bike Cop said:
Some of my best customers are custom bobbers. It seems they take the approach that aesthetics are everything, and start removing equipment to suit their taste. Most of them will modify after the certification, so they don't risk the shop denying their cert. The insurance thing is a bigger risk that I personally wouldn't take. It's not the claim for repairs or replacement that worries me, but the coverage for loss of life, etc.
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lots of custom bobbers on the road up in barrie.
question for you... do you legally need turn signals if you are using proper hand signals and are on a bike that is considered on ownership and to insurance as "home built custom" ?

OP - this also answers your insurance question and if you would like i can get you the name of a barrie brokerage that covers home built customs. i believe you may need a new vin though which the ministry can issue. its somewhere around $120 a month.

as for safety certificate, anything can be bought for the right price but i wouldnt know where to go personally, im still under warranty on all my vehicles.
 
Bike Cop said:
It's not the claim for repairs or replacement that worries me, but the coverage for loss of life, etc.
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Dealing with insurance it's over the phone with a girl reading off of cue cards doesn't invite a reasonable conversation. If I put on better shocks, cartridge emulators, open airbox+re-jet etc. am I building a hot rod or just fine tuning what the factory should have delivered in the first place? It puts the insurance company in a pretty sweet spot where they can collect premiums and, in case of claim, possibly deny coverage. Win/win for them.
 
Turn signals are required equipment for trucks and buses, but not for cars and bikes. Hand signals are permitted. Under s. 62, lights required on bikes are front headlight (pre-1970 excepted) and rear tail light, licence plate light (after 1975). I haven't found any exemption for those two lights because of status as "home-built".

Other equipment requirements are found in O.Reg 611 Schedule 6. Everything is in there, and there is a section that talks about suspension components.
"4. (1) Front and rear springs, shock-absorbers, swing arms, their supports and attachments shall not be loose, bent, cracked, broken, excessively worn, disconnected or missing."

I won't paste the entire Regulation here but at the side of the road, a vehicle inspection can be much more than just showing that you have a mirror and a horn... And more than one person has been sent walking because of the extent of their modifications. As an aside, I know it looks cool not to have a front brake caliper, but really - I mean come on.

If I've missed something in there feel free to point it out, I just came off nightshift.
 
Bike Cop said:
Turn signals are required equipment for trucks and buses, but not for cars and bikes. Hand signals are permitted. Under s. 62, lights required on bikes are front headlight (pre-1970 excepted) and rear tail light, licence plate light (after 1975). I haven't found any exemption for those two lights because of status as "home-built".

Other equipment requirements are found in O.Reg 611 Schedule 6. Everything is in there, and there is a section that talks about suspension components.
"4. (1) Front and rear springs, shock-absorbers, swing arms, their supports and attachments shall not be loose, bent, cracked, broken, excessively worn, disconnected or missing."

I won't paste the entire Regulation here but at the side of the road, a vehicle inspection can be much more than just showing that you have a mirror and a horn... And more than one person has been sent walking because of the extent of their modifications. As an aside, I know it looks cool not to have a front brake caliper, but really - I mean come on.

If I've missed something in there feel free to point it out, I just came off nightshift.
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golden, the bobber my buddy is riding in barrie that we built is all good then lol.
 
Morrissey said:
Even if I certified the bike first, then did all the modifications, how likely am I to be able to safety the bike in the future if I decide to sell?
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Moot point, no one buys bobbers. Be prepared for that.

The bike has to fit the laws, period. If the build does not have these things: horn, lights, signals, mirrors, gauges, brakes, it is not safe for the public road.

Many people buy cafe project bikes on Kijiji only to find they cannot be certified. You see a lot of builds on the internet and Bike EXIF that will never be street legal in Ontario, or even most states, those things are considered " bike art" and never actually ridden or plated.

For insurance, forget anything but liability. Tell them everything, otherwise they can refuse to pay. They may require an appraisal.
 
Bike Cop said:
I won't paste the entire Regulation here but at the side of the road, a vehicle inspection can be much more than just showing that you have a mirror and a horn... And more than one person has been sent walking because of the extent of their modifications. As an aside, I know it looks cool not to have a front brake caliper, but really - I mean come on.
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This is why I hate Chris Hunter and BikeExif -he frequently features bikes that are unsafe and/or unridable. If you mention this, he bans your comments. Hipster crap. He's all about "culture" and not actually riding a bike.
 
inreb said:
Dealing with insurance it's over the phone with a girl reading off of cue cards doesn't invite a reasonable conversation. If I put on better shocks, cartridge emulators, open airbox+re-jet etc. am I building a hot rod or just fine tuning what the factory should have delivered in the first place? It puts the insurance company in a pretty sweet spot where they can collect premiums and, in case of claim, possibly deny coverage. Win/win for them.
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They don't care about that. They care if you add a turbo in terms of liability. The other farkle and mods are about replacement costs, so if you want all that replaced, you have to list it all and be prepared to pay more, or they will just pay out on a stock bike, plus depreciation.

Custom bikes will typically need a special policy. Dalton Timmis does that.
 
CafeRay said:
This is why I hate Chris Hunter and BikeExif -he frequently features bikes that are unsafe and/or unridable. If you mention this, he bans your comments. Hipster crap. He's all about "culture" and not actually riding a bike.
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That's understandable and his prerogative. Same reason we can't comment on classified ads. I agree, it's hipster crap. Saw some poor examples of that out at the usual haunts yesterday. Did you realize some people will give up tire performance for a cool tire look as dictated by online pics. True story bro.
 
Call the Insurance Brokers linked to the forum. They will know the bike friendly companies. There are a few. Typically, they will ask for an appraisal like a Custom Car or collectible. Depending on the company and type of bike, they might set the premium on value of the bike. It's a show bike that can be ridden etc.

If it's just rat bob hacker, the replacement value isn't that much so, I recommend not even putting collision on it and run with liability/AB benefits and you should be fine.

My ex is a Underwriter for Intact. They get appraisals all the time. Mainly for the custom chopper/bagger crowd. Not sure about the cafe/bobber jobs. Don't talk to the ex about this stuff much any more. lol. So, just contact a broker that deals with bikes. They should know.
 
CafeRay said:
They don't care about that. They care if you add a turbo in terms of liability. The other farkle and mods are about replacement costs, so if you want all that replaced, you have to list it all and be prepared to pay more, or they will just pay out on a stock bike, plus depreciation.

Custom bikes will typically need a special policy. Dalton Timmis does that.
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OK. I don't remember bike mods as a topic of discussion with face to face meetings@ insurance brokers. It was something that only came up over the telephone when I moved to Primmum 5 or so years ago. I assumed the questions were for certain reasons and I just pussy footed around trying to fish for answers. I was never satisfied with their responses and it felt like a game. That's no way to do business but I just want the damn bike on the road.
 
About me: 30+, been riding since I was 16, owned a few bikes. Wife, kid, mortgage and a career. I'm no rebel and not really interested in "bucking the system". I don't get out to ride much anymore and would like a bike that brings a little more "wow" factor than my current UJM. My current ride is equipped with a full compliment of Givi bags that have gone unused since the munchkin arrived. I get to ride a couple times a month, and want to be home by supper. I really just want something that is fun to stomp around on and have some fun. I've always loved hardtailed bobbers and old school 70's style choppers. I figure by the time my back and shoulders are aching, it'll probably be time to get home anyway.

What I would want the bike to have are: hard tail rear end, peanut tank (makes you stop for fuel and gives you an opportunity to stretch), springer front end. Having said that, I also don't want to be paying fines and debating with Johnny Law every time I go for a ride, that's why I've given up on wanting the ape hangers! I want the bike to be safe (as possible) so I can get home to the munchkin. Headlight, break light, breaks, etc are things I wouldn't eliminate for looks. I don't even mind a set of turn signals if they're discrete, but according to Bike Cop they aren't necessary to be legal. So question for Bike Cop; it says the suspension has to be in good repair, but what if the bike has NO rear suspension?

The plan is to have the bike done right. I know my mechanical limits and do not want some garage hack job. I have a fairly good idea of how much this will cost to get it done right and it's not cheap. I don't mind saving and spending the money to get the bike I want. I've never had collision insurance on a bike before and probably wouldn't bother with this one either, my insurance worry is if they would try and deny a claim for my own personal injury if they found out the bike had a custom hard tail etc rather than the original suspension.
 
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My advice is buy the bike you think you want and try it for a while before investing any real money. These hard-tail bobbers/springers are always for sale because they are a painful ride and poor design of a motorcycle.
"Discrete turn signal" is a bit of an oxymoron.
 
CafeRay said:
My advice is buy the bike you think you want and try it for a while before investing any real money. These hard-tail bobbers/springers are always for sale because they are a painful ride and poor design of a motorcycle.
"Discrete turn signal" is a bit of an oxymoron.
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I admire your restraint. I couldn't so I didn't.
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