How is this ok? | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

How is this ok?

Twotons said:
Brian, like I said, not to take anything away from Ken and what he has done for the racing community, I don't see him stepping up for trackday riders. That's ok...I don't expect him to.
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Ken doesn't operate track days. He has his hands full with what he does now. There are other organizations that operate good track days. I've named a couple of them. Others have named a couple others.

Twotons said:
However, I don't see any value bashing others who are willing to put up their money and to take a financial risk to provide trackdays to others. Is it perfect? No. But, until your the person willing to cut the cheque for safety equipment I think you should try supporting them and not hating on them. I'll leave it at that...
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I, for one, am not "bashing", but rather "strongly suggesting" for the "offenders" shall we say (who I have not named, I will let others do the math), to step up to the plate and DO THE RIGHT THING. If they do not do the right thing, they are exposing us, and by inference themselves, to levels of risk that need not be taken.

My method of supporting those who do the right thing will be to patronize organizations who do it right, and not support those who do it wrong and don't mend their ways.
 
Twotons said:
Brian, like I said, not to take anything away from Ken and what he has done for the racing community, I don't see him stepping up for trackday riders. That's ok...I don't expect him to.

However, I don't see any value bashing others who are willing to put up their money and to take a financial risk to provide trackdays to others. Is it perfect? No. But, until your the person willing to cut the cheque for safety equipment I think you should try supporting them and not hating on them. I'll leave it at that...
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I guess you missed the part where Ken cut the check for the bags and bails that are at TMP. The bails that should have been replaced many times by now. The bails that are conveniently located out of the way of the most dangerous spot on the track as per the picture in the first photo.

Please continue to rouse us with you vast inexperience and lack of knowledge on the subject.
 
Twotons said:
Brian, like I said, not to take anything away from Ken and what he has done for the racing community, I don't see him stepping up for trackday riders. That's ok...I don't expect him to.

However, I don't see any value bashing others who are willing to put up their money and to take a financial risk to provide trackdays to others. Is it perfect? No. But, until your the person willing to cut the cheque for safety equipment I think you should try supporting them and not hating on them. I'll leave it at that...
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TIL not to point out glaring safety issues about anything unless I'm willing to step up/cut a cheque/put my money where my mouth is/etc


Even if you are the guy that actually did all that
 
Twotons said:
Lastly, I can see that there is no protection on the wall. And, if you expect protection, do you expect a system to protect the rider doing 60-70kph in that corner or for TMP to pay the money to protect the rider who chose to ignore the wall and crashes into someone else going over 100+kph while passing? Remember its a track day not a race.

I think riders have the first responsibility for their safety and they should adjust their riding to the track conditions as built just like they would on the street when doing track days...then push for some added safety. Are a few hay bales against the wall really going to protect the rider who takes someone out at 100kph+ in that corner? I would think that there must be a number of other corners that are much safer to go balls out so why not slow down in this one? Its a track day not a race and your not getting paid.
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You said it, it's a track day and not a race.... with that being said, I don't think you understand what a track day is yet. There are rules for passing in corners at 95% of the track days. It's rare for riders to take eachother out in corners.
 
buck said:
You said it, it's a track day and not a race.... with that being said, I don't think you understand what a track day is yet. There are rules for passing in corners at 95% of the track days. It's rare for riders to take eachother out in corners.
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... some do a pretty good of trying though.
 
I just emailed the track to ask if they have any plans to rectify this situation. I don't know if they will respond, but it probably wouldn't hurt if a few more people emailed or called.
 
Twotons said:
Maybe...but at least I don't expect others to pay for the decisions I make in my life. lol.
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Are you aware of all the risks at any track? Do you walk the track and look for potential hazards to avoid? How many trackday riders do a track walk? How many trackday riders know about the steel pipe sticking out of the ground outside of turn 1 at TMP?

Not all riders are aware of where all the impact zones and dangers are. I never realized how spooky Turn 1 at Tremblant can be until I downshifted a bit to early and the rear end of my bike started to come around right over the crest of the hill. Suddenly the wall outside that corner was pretty big and scary looking. It's hard to tell when you're looking at it, standing on the track, that it will be that way but when you grab that down shift at 140mph things change.

You might not fully realize the dangerous spots but trackday providers do (or at least they should) and if they do nothing to protect those spots, does that border on negligence? We all sign those waivers when we enter the track, but they aren't worth the paper they're written on if something bad happens and someone decides to sue.
 
This whole thread is ridiculous.
Ken is right. Twoton is spewing drivel he knows nothing about, and inexperience shines thru.
Ask me how I know? This is the turn in question..........after this, I consider myself knowledgable on the subject,LOL
73342_487009560449_614375449_7567285_1328980_n.jpg

Properly protected wall.
My bike.....and thx Caboose.........quick action on the firebottle.
Walked away and raced again a half hr later.
And yeah. we were riding at 11/10ths.....last lap, last turn, i took the inside pass for what I hoped would be a win.
No rearsets, tons of lean, and bumpy turn = both wheels off the ground. How does Stoner put it?.....my ambition outweighed my talent.
 
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Twotons said:
Tim, I don't disagree, but I do think if riders are concerned about safety in particular corners or do not know the track, then they need to excerise some throttle control and common sense instead of going balls out with the expectation that tracks have built safety nets for them in every corner. Again, Im talking about track days and not all out racing.
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Considering you have never been on track, you haven't witnessed the sheer jack*ssery that can happen.
You get straight line heroes, that park it in corners and use their litre bikes to rocket down the straights, only to end up holding everyone up again.
You get riders, who as Omnivore put, "How does Stoner put it?.....my ambition outweighed my talent.". They feel their skills are top notch and have no regard for safety of others (Saw a BMW S1000rr clip an Aprilia RSV4 last summer, and end up crashing (BMW), smashing his bike to bits. Saw another rider run off track by another guy coming into a turn way too hot, jamming up inside and forcing him to the outside, off track, all while being about 2 feet off his right leg -- and then the same culprit proceeded to ignore the black flag at all stations for 5 laps (I was behind him to witness this).
You get riders showing up in fashion leather jackets.
Certain organizers have terrible marshals that are more interested in catching sun (insert memory of guy lying back on beach lounge, holding a sun reflector under his chin, paying ZERO attention to track).

Common sense isn't nearly as common as you would expect at track days.

 
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Twotons said:
Tim, I don't disagree, but I do think if riders are concerned about safety in particular corners or do not know the track, then they need to excerise some throttle control and common sense instead of going balls out with the expectation that tracks have built safety nets for them in every corner. Again, Im talking about track days and not all out racing.
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All well and good in an ideal world, but not everyone does that. Then when they crash and hit the wall due to their own stupidity - or even worse, they hit someone else and make the other rider crash and hit the wall - and they get severely injured or paralyzed, the families and the lawyers get involved and state that neither the track nor the track-day organizer "took all measures reasonable in the circumstances" and the lawsuits start flying.

It's pretty hard to argue that the organizer "took all measures reasonable in the circumstances" when the haybales in question were sitting next to the track instead of parked against that wall. When the lawyer asks in court why the haybales were not against that wall, what do you, the track-day organizer, answer?
 
Twotons said:
Again, Im talking track days..but thanks for coming out.
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For some reason you think crashes end with a different outcome during a race than they do during a trackday?
It's all about preparing for the potential crash that may or may not happen. Crashes don't only happen from overestimating one's talent. There's accidents, mistakes, and mechanical failures too.
Does your car have airbags? Why?
Same reason.
By your thinking, there would be no reason to have rules, safety gear etc....I mean if the answer is just to tone it down due to the rider's perception of vulnerability, we could ride with no gear, anywhere we liked, so long as we adjust our riding for the potential dangers we perceive?
Man you're dense.
 
omnivore said:
By your thinking, there would be no reason to have rules, safety gear etc....I mean if the answer is just to tone it down due to the rider's perception of vulnerability, we could ride with no gear, anywhere we liked, so long as we adjust our riding for the potential dangers we perceive?
Man you're dense.
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So TMP will be doing Darwin's work, the same as states with no helmet laws all people to Darwin themselves. This should make all other track days a lot safer, both by creating awareness of safety hazards and reducing the risk taking track-dayer population. I know it's awful to say, we all have friends who've been seriously hurt or killed at the track, but this line of thought seems to be reality. TMP is still in business somehow, and we know it's been unsafe since opening day.
 
Twotons said:
Tim, I don't disagree, but I do think if riders are concerned about safety in particular corners or do not know the track, then they need to excerise some throttle control and common sense instead of going balls out with the expectation that tracks have built safety nets for them in every corner. Again, Im talking about track days and not all out racing.
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So by going slower you feel you are safer and in control? You feel that all riders should enter the corner slower under control and then accelerate on the exit?
You do realize Novice riders have a greater risk of hi-sideing then expert riders? Assuming one did hi-side out of that corner where would you end up?
Okay, so you have traction control,,great! Good,,so you excellerate out of the corner and the rear wheel is hooked up,,,but correct me if I'm wrong,, but traction control
does not work on the front wheel,,right? So say it's sliding while the rear is hooking up. You got this,, your Novice ability has this covered?
So FACT,, slower riders hit the throtle harder then faster riders. They are lower in the revs but whack it full on on the exit. Thus, the risk of hi-siding.
Now assuming you have traction control,, did you consider the front might push while the rear is working. Maybe that's why the crash impact zones have changed over the last few years. But you were aware of that I'm sure.
Maybe that is why the impact areas at most tracks are now being reconsidered. Maybe the people that organize track days and "care" are trying,,CONSTANTLY to improve things.
Maybe crap happens racing and on track days. I could actually give you tangable circumstances but won't go there.
Maybe you need to understand "WHY" people like Ken and others here are upset at your comments.
I'm pretty safety minded,, maybe becasue I've hit guard rail and cement. Maybe becasue I've been down 3 times over 220KPH. Maybe becasue I've lost way too many friends because we failed to keep the safety curve on an incline.
Nobody has all the answers but "assuming" you feel you know what is or isn't acceptable tells me you have not seen the talent in Canada destroyed by an unprotected wall.
Go ride that unprotected wall. Funny,,,, nobody ever though anybody would go over the burm either. Best of luck!

John Bickle
Canadian Rider Safety Fund
 
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