Intimidation from the prosecutor; allowed or misconduct? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Intimidation from the prosecutor; allowed or misconduct?

Motorcycle Mike

Well-known member
I haven't had a whole lot of court dates, but I just attended the trial for a speeding ticket in Mississauga and was surprised at the way I was spoken to by the prosecutor.

My original ticket was for 86 in a 60, 3 points, $90 ticket for a total of $121 with victim surcharge or whatever crap they add on.

So I waited until I saw the cop that pulled me over showed up, then stood in the line to see the prosecutor.
I heard her say the same thing to others in front of me, and then she said to me: Your ticket is for $121 and 3 points. If you go to trial and lose you could pay more. Rather, you can plead guilty and take a 75 in a 60, $45 fine plus victim surcharge, no points.

Basically I take this as a threat and intimidation. They are saying if you have the nerve to challenge them, you could end up paying more. I don't think that is right. I could see paying the full price of the ticket ($121 and 3 points) if I challenge the ticket and am still found guilty, but I do not appreciated the threat and intimidation of it possibly being higher. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there someone I can file a complaint to regarding this intimidation?
 
It's not intimidation, it's fact.
She is offering you a way out of the points and to cut the fine down.

That being said. 16 over is nothing... If that was your real speed. In that is the case you should be able to easily win in court with the officer present. His ticket is him testifying he saw you break the law by 16 km,

Apologies profusely that you didn't mean to speed and it creeped up on you and how you a good student and only in your teens etc..


Good luck



Sent from my my mobile using a strange app for damaged people
 
It's not intimidation, it's fact.
She is offering you a way out of the points and to cut the fine down.

That being said. 16 over is nothing... If that was your real speed. In that is the case you should be able to easily win in court with the officer present. His ticket is him testifying he saw you break the law by 16 km,

Apologies profusely that you didn't mean to speed and it creeped up on you and how you a good student and only in your teens etc..


Good luck



Sent from my my mobile using a strange app for damaged people

The intimidation part was the "if you fight it and found guilty, your fine and points could be higher than on the ticket"

I believe the rule should be, if you fight it and lose you get the ticket that was written, not more, not necessarily less. The way this prosecutor worded it, it was a threat.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter... I was guilty and I paid the fine. I will write to my MPP though; stating how prosecution should not be allowed to threat or intimidate. Who do they think they are, the mafia?
 
that's what they do and is a part of "negotiation".

they can't hit you for more than the original ticket however, unless it was already reduced by the officer, in which case they can.
 
@ OP the fine indicated on your ticket is an "out of court" set fine. After you're found guilty by trial, they go to the Highway Traffic Act fine table which is slightly higher.

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do-i/set-fines/set-fines-i/schedule-43/


Schedule B
Highway Traffic Act
Speeding

b) 20-29 kilometres per hour over the maximum speed limit $3.75 per kilometre​

In your particular case, the 'out-of-court' calculation is as follows:

Set Fine = $3.75/kph x 26kph = $97.5
Victim Surcharge = $20
Court Fee = $5
Total = $122.5​
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm#BK198

Penalty
(14) Every person who contravenes this section or any by-law or regulation made under this section is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable, where the rate of speed at which the motor vehicle was driven,
(b) is 20 kilometres per hour or more but less than 30 kilometres per hour over the speed limit, to a fine of $4.50 for each kilometre per hour that the motor vehicle was driven over the speed limit; 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 17 (7).​

The guilty verdict total fine is:

Set Fine = $4.50/kph x 26kph = $117
Victim Surcharge = $25
Court Fee = $5
Total = $142​

There have been lot of decisions where defendants have actually appealed, because they felt the 128 (14) fines were unconstitutionally/indiscriminately higher than the ones on the ticket... but all have failed. https://www.canlii.org/en/search/search.do?jId=on&all=speeding+set+fine

R. v. O’Neill, 2008 ONCJ 391 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/20lsv

[3] The prosecution seeks a penalty pursuant to s. 128(14) of the Highway Traffic Act (HTA) rather than the set fine. The defence takes the view that a fine above the set fine would be unfair as the defendant would be unjustly penalized for having exercised his right to a trial.
[4] The defence also submits that it should have been warned in advance that the prosecution would seek the higher penalty at trial. In the defendant’s view, the lack of prior notice further enhances the unfairness of a possible penalty, under s. 128(14).
[29] In my view, the issue of fairness has been determined by the Ontario Legislature when it did not include the possibility of a set fine as a sentence after a conviction at trial.
[41] The fine will be $224.00, as per s. 128(14) HTA. The court costs and surcharges as prescribed in the POA, will be added.​

R. v. Weber, 2003 CanLII 72341 (ON SC): http://canlii.ca/t/g1d7g

[34] In the circumstances, the appropriate fine that ought to have been imposed on the respondent upon his plea of guilty, having chosen the option of a trial -- or indeed after a full blown trial -- is $45 (the basic fine) + $5 (costs) + $10 (surcharge), for a total of $60.
[35] It will be observed that the fine payable after trial or upon a guilty plea at trial is greater than the set fine. If the respondent had been served with an offence notice for speeding 65 kilometres per hour in a 50 kilometre per hour zone and had pleaded guilty pursuant to ss. 6, 7 or 8 or deemed not to dispute the charge pursuant to s. 9 of the POA, the set fine of $42.50 ($2.50 x 15 = $37.50 + $5 costs) would have been imposed. To this the surcharge of $10 [page135] would have been added for a total fine of $52.50 as opposed to $60 as calculated above. Similarly, if he had pleaded guilty to speeding 99 kilometres per hour in a 50 kilometre per hour zone, his set fine would have been $299 ($6 x 49 = $294 + $5 costs). To this the surcharge of $60 would have been added for a total fine of $359. On the other hand if he had opted for a trial, the fine at conviction would have been $348 ($7 x 49 = $343 + $5 costs). To this the surcharge of $75 would have been added for a total of $423.​

JPs have even had their rulings overturned when they DID NOT use the 128 (14) table, and tried to use the cheaper OcJ table.

R. v. Appiah, 2012 ONCJ 754 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/fv6pz

[1] The respondent pleaded guilty before the justice of the peace on February 27, 2012, at Old City Hall, Toronto to the offence of speeding 45 kilometres per hour in a 30 kilometre per hour zone contrary to section 128 of the Highway Traffic Act R.S.O. 1990 c. H.8. The Crown appeals the fine imposed by the justice of the peace.
[2] The issue on appeal is a narrow one. Does the justice of the peace have the authority to impose a set fine under the Provincial Offences Act R.S.O. 1990 c. P. 33 rather than the statutory fine under section 128(14) of the Highway Traffic Act?
[3] In my view, there is no such authority. The appeal will be allowed and the sentence will be varied to a fine of $45.00 along with costs and victim fine surcharge payable within 120 days.
[11] Thus, in my view, the decision of the learned justice of the peace cannot stand. The appeal as to sentence is allowed and the order will go accordingly.​


__________________________

I also hope that your original ticket wasn't actually $90 set fine and $121 total for +26kph; that would have been a fatal error, and you could've had the ticket tossed.
 
This wasn't a threat or intimidation. The prosecutor, merely stated a fact the fine would have been higher, (albeit only by about $2 but it IS still higher), then what the "out of court" settlement was on the ticket.

Does the prosecutor have to speak to you kindly? No, they should be polite and courteous, but it is not written in stone they have to be nice. If you took it as a threat, then so be it, it was a fact.

As for the "it is only 16km over, therefore you can beat it easily" is just a wrong statement. The officer at his/her "discretion" can ticket someone for 1KM over. Do they of course not but 16 km is still speeding so I am unsure how this represents in the posters mind an "easy win" Normal SOP for most officers is 15 - 20 over warning 20+ is a ticket. Of course if they feel the person they stopped was in ANY way dismissive or arrogant or disrespectful ten that is out the window and they will normally write the ticket.

You were "smart" to take the no points deal, (although be aware it "can" still affect your insurance depending upon the company and their rate policies).

FYI prosecutors offer these "deals" all the time to not clog the system and "waste" the courts valuable time. In the end you still had the option to fight it.
 
Crown stated fact.
OP, courts are, by nature, intimidating.
You can counter, by being prepared.
 
r. v. Winlow is what she would have been relying on or r. v. Antunes. Sorry for not posting the citations. I see that a lot of people have posted some really good information. Years ago I had a cop tell me that if I fought the ticket, the speed would be raised at trial - that is misconduct and intimidation - basically removing my fundamental right to Justice. I have hijacked hubby's computer to respond.
 
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This wasn't a threat or intimidation. The prosecutor, merely stated a fact the fine would have been higher, (albeit only by about $2 but it IS still higher), then what the "out of court" settlement was on the ticket.



You were "smart" to take the no points deal, (although be aware it "can" still affect your insurance depending upon the company and their rate policies).



FYI prosecutors offer these "deals" all the time to not clog the system and "waste" the courts valuable time. In the end you still had the option to fight it.

I agree that they were stating facts and not intimidating.


Why was the OP smart to take the no points deal? Because they only matter to the ministry.


I went to speak to the prosecutor about a no sticker ticket and was chuckling at the people in front of me that we're taking the "deals" she was handing out. Sorry but if I'm going, I'm either fighting for the whole enchilada or nothing.
 
I agree that they were stating facts and not intimidating.


Why was the OP smart to take the no points deal? Because they only matter to the ministry.


I went to speak to the prosecutor about a no sticker ticket and was chuckling at the people in front of me that we're taking the "deals" she was handing out. Sorry but if I'm going, I'm either fighting for the whole enchilada or nothing.

I stated he was smart to have taken the deal that was offered. Had he fought and lost, (it sounds like he had no defense against the charge, wasn't properly prepared to fight it), then the prosecutor would have no doubt made this known to the JP and asked for the maximum, including the points. The points ALSO matter to the insurance companies. Just get a few tickets and accumulate 6+ points see what happens to the rates. This is why they have different rating policies for minor and major infractions.
 
I haven't had a whole lot of court dates, but I just attended the trial for a speeding ticket in Mississauga and was surprised at the way I was spoken to by the prosecutor.

My original ticket was for 86 in a 60, 3 points, $90 ticket for a total of $121 with victim surcharge or whatever crap they add on.

So I waited until I saw the cop that pulled me over showed up, then stood in the line to see the prosecutor.
I heard her say the same thing to others in front of me, and then she said to me: Your ticket is for $121 and 3 points. If you go to trial and lose you could pay more. Rather, you can plead guilty and take a 75 in a 60, $45 fine plus victim surcharge, no points.

Basically I take this as a threat and intimidation. They are saying if you have the nerve to challenge them, you could end up paying more. I don't think that is right. I could see paying the full price of the ticket ($121 and 3 points) if I challenge the ticket and am still found guilty, but I do not appreciated the threat and intimidation of it possibly being higher. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there someone I can file a complaint to regarding this intimidation?

Interesting.....that they could remove the points.....

I was under the impression that they had no control over the points, only the fine payable could be lowered....

.
 
Interesting.....that they could remove the points.....

I was under the impression that they had no control over the points, only the fine payable could be lowered....

.

The have the latitude to reduce the speed stated at conviction, which also has the effect of reducing or eliminating points against your license.
 
@ OP the fine indicated on your ticket is an "out of court" set fine. After you're found guilty by trial, they go to the Highway Traffic Act fine table which is slightly higher.

I also hope that your original ticket wasn't actually $90 set fine and $121 total for +26kph; that would have been a fatal error, and you could've had the ticket tossed.

Thanks for the excellent info, it all makes sense now. I thought what they were doing was basically saying "F-you for trying to fight this, now you pay more". Since the rate is set in a prescribed table, then it is not arbitrary.

My original ticket was just somewhere around there... I think it was in the $120 ballpark, but I don't have it in front of me.

The prosecutor was professional and did not pretend to be angry or any other such nonsense, but it was the wording that made this seem like a threat. Had she said "if you fight this and are found guilty your fine will be based on the set fines in the HTA.", then I would have understood that this is procedural and not revenge for wasting their time.

Anyway, I suppose I could have put more effort into fighting this ticket, but it might not have mattered.
What happened is that I got frustrated by a few slow lane-hogging drivers and when I got the chance I cranked the throttle a bit more than I should have. If I fought this I was going to argue about whether radar actually got me (on my 300lb plastic covered KLX250) or someone else, and it probably wouldn't have worked anyway.

At the end of the day though, my record is spotless so this one ticket won't make much of a difference, I was guilty as charged, I didn't really have the time or preparation to properly fight this, and the only reason I challenged the ticket was to reduce the fine and take a chance at the cop-no-show lottery.
 
The have the latitude to reduce the speed stated at conviction, which also has the effect of reducing or eliminating points against your license.

Would that be the difference in pleading guilty with an explanation and plea-bargaining to a reduced charge? Or does that not make a difference if it is within the same offence?
 
Would that be the difference in pleading guilty with an explanation and plea-bargaining to a reduced charge? Or does that not make a difference if it is within the same offence?

Pleading guilty with an explanation is basically begging for mercy; you might not get it. Plea bargaining is negotiating a guilty verdict that both sides can live with.
 
Funny last ticket I got, and spoke with the prosecutor to see what could be done, SHE reduced the fine I had to pay, but the points still remained the same, was told they had no control as this is set by the ministry....

not a big deal, this was way back and is no longer on my record anyways....

I just might go and talk to the prosecutors tomorrow, since I will be at the court house anyways....

.
 
You were "smart" to take the no points deal, (although be aware it "can" still affect your insurance depending upon the company and their rate policies).

Insurance doesn't care about the points at all. They only care about whether it was a minor or major offense and how many of them you have. Points only matter if you have a REALLY bad record and are at risk of losing your license. I guess in a an indirect way they care since major infractions have higher points tied to them...
 
Funny last ticket I got, and spoke with the prosecutor to see what could be done, SHE reduced the fine I had to pay, but the points still remained the same, was told they had no control as this is set by the ministry....

not a big deal, this was way back and is no longer on my record anyways....

I just might go and talk to the prosecutors tomorrow, since I will be at the court house anyways....

.

they don't hence speeding tickets getting reduced to 15 over, points start at 16 over,
another example is red light tickets getting plea bargained to fail to proceed at intersection or some other non points offence
 
I was going 80 in a 60 which I mistakenly thought was a true 80 zone .... Officer dropped my ticket from 20 over to 15 .. On the spot ... Then told me to go and speak to a prosecutor ... Spoke to the prosecutor and got the same reply .... If I chose to fight the ticket ... If found guilty . The original charge of 20 over ... 3 points and whatever the fine was would be applied again .... The prosecutor offered me a settlement of 10 over .. 20 dollar fine and no points ...... I took that sh*t and ran ...

This had happened to a friend of mine... He fought the lesser charge ... Lost .. And his ticket went right back up to the original charge.

I have a relatively clean record .... I had another 10 over 5 years ago ... And now this one .. So I appreciate the officer dropping the charge for me to keep my record still relatively clean.
 
Pretty sure both those tickets count the same to insurance so you really only saved yourself whatever the difference in the fines was...
 

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