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Thread: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

  1. #41

    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    You aren't breaking any rules when you get in the express lane, now are you? You are when lane split. Therein lies the difference.

    And yes, it has been discussed to death, and this thread offers nothing new. Proponents ogf lane splitting want to do it whether legal or not, while many of those opposed to it are only opposed while it actually IS illegal, because it is illegal.
    The lawful state of lanesplitting is illegal in Canada and most of the US. We know that. We also know laws, sometimes, have jack **** do with morality or ethics.

    It would appear, however, that some riders and most car drivers consider lane splitting UNETHICAL. That is, unethical in the same sense as cutting in line. While I can understand why individuals would compare lane-splitting with cutting in line, the comparison is generally made with ignorance...that is, not being educated on certain facts.

    Regardless, this thread, multiple threads prior to it, comments from my friends about smacking bikes using doors and a hypothetical video have all pointed towards one thing: regardless of the lawful, ethical and moral state of lane splitting; it is DAMNED unsafe in Canada because you can and will get your *** hurt and have little to no means of compensation even if somebody's intention was to kill you.
    Last edited by 油井緋色; 03-07-2013 at 11:34 AM.

  2. #42
    Moderator Rob MacLennan's Avatar
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    You forgot "unsafe."
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  3. #43

    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    No I didn't, it's in the 3rd paragraph

  4. #44
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by 油井緋色 View Post
    No I didn't, it's in the 3rd paragraph
    No, you forgot about it when you were talking about the reasons for laws. You implied that morality and ethics are reasons for laws, when you stated that laws sometimes have little to do with either. That's because laws are far more often about the public safety and the public good, than they are either of those other two things. It's illegal because it is unsafe, given current circumstances.
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  5. #45

    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    No, you forgot about it when you were talking about the reasons for laws. You implied that morality and ethics are reasons for laws, when you stated that laws sometimes have little to do with either. That's because laws are far more often about the public safety and the public good, than they are either of those other two things. It's illegal because it is unsafe, given current circumstances.
    Fine, you are right. I don't normally think in terms of 'safety', I tend to stray more along the lines of morals and ethics because safety isn't a big concern in certain subjects of interest (ie. abortion, implants, euthanasia, genetic modification, etc.).

  6. #46
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    ... It's illegal because it is unsafe, given current circumstances.
    I'd suggest it would be better expressed as "it's illegal becasue it is perceived as unsafe.."

    In many cases there is little real scientific data to back that something is or isn't unsafe, but rather there may be a a perception by those that either make or influence laws that something is unsafe.

    ..Tom

  7. #47
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by V-Tom View Post
    I'd suggest it would be better expressed as "it's illegal becasue it is perceived as unsafe.."

    In many cases there is little real scientific data to back that something is or isn't unsafe, but rather there may be a a perception by those that either make or influence laws that something is unsafe.

    ..Tom
    If you like, however my belief is that current conditions, in which drivers are not expecting a motorcycle to be in a place where they would have no reason for there to be another vehicle, is in fact patently unsafe for lane splitting. The scientific data you speak of usually comes from proponents of lane splitting, who present data from places in which it has been the norm for an extended period of time. This does not, in any way, reflect our situation in Ontario.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    If you like, however my belief is that current conditions, in which drivers are not expecting a motorcycle to be in a place where they would have no reason for there to be another vehicle, is in fact patently unsafe for lane splitting. The scientific data you speak of usually comes from proponents of lane splitting, who present data from places in which it has been the norm for an extended period of time. This does not, in any way, reflect our situation in Ontario.
    I was talking in general terms regarding the creation of most laws (although I should say in particular to do with motor vehicles.)

    There is a cart and horse thing with lane splitting: since it isn't allowed no one is used to it, but if it isn't allowed how does anyone get used to it? I have done it in California and it is kind of neat and saved a lot of time but I was nowhere near as aggressive at it as riders are down there. I personaly think it shoud be phased in here (as shoud allowing motorcycles to ride solo in HOV lanes on provincial highways) as it has so many benifits, but would agree that lane splitting would need a lot of education of both drivers and riders before it would be practical here.

    ..Tom

  9. #49
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by V-Tom View Post
    I was talking in general terms regarding the creation of most laws (although I should say in particular to do with motor vehicles.)

    There is a cart and horse thing with lane splitting: since it isn't allowed no one is used to it, but if it isn't allowed how does anyone get used to it? I have done it in California and it is kind of neat and saved a lot of time but I was nowhere near as aggressive at it as riders are down there. I personaly think it shoud be phased in here (as shoud allowing motorcycles to ride solo in HOV lanes on provincial highways) as it has so many benifits, but would agree that lane splitting would need a lot of education of both drivers and riders before it would be practical here.

    ..Tom
    And by all means, let's have it. Let's not do it, however, until it's legal and start complaining about how unsafe it is, as this thread has done. Want to talk about making it legal and discuss how that can be done? Go nuts. Want to whine about how dangerous it is when people get upset about you doing something illegal? We've had more than enough of that, already.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    And by all means, let's have it. Let's not do it, however, until it's legal and start complaining about how unsafe it is, as this thread has done. Want to talk about making it legal and discuss how that can be done? Go nuts. Want to whine about how dangerous it is when people get upset about you doing something illegal? We've had more than enough of that, already.

    Agreed!

    And for the record I don't do it here, never have, just did it in California. Lane splitting is not high on my priority list of things to fight for here. I would love to see lane filtering in Ontario as it woudl be pretty easy to allow and would be much safer (but haven't done that either.)

    ..Tom

  11. #51

    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    How exactly did California and European countries get lanesplitting passed?

    Did the Governator really play a huge role in it?

  12. #52
    Moderator Rob MacLennan's Avatar
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by 油井緋色 View Post
    How exactly did California and European countries get lanesplitting passed?

    Did the Governator really play a huge role in it?
    It has never been against the law in California, to my knowledge. There is no California law stating that lane splitting is legal. As there is no law against it, it has evolved to be common practice.
    Last edited by Rob MacLennan; 03-07-2013 at 02:30 PM.
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  13. #53
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    It has never been against the law in California, to my knowledge. There is no California law stating that lane splitting is legal. As there is no law against it, it has evolved to be common practice.
    I think you have mentioned it before but what law in Ontario specifically prohibits it?

    ..Tom

  14. #54
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by V-Tom View Post
    I think you have mentioned it before but what law in Ontario specifically prohibits it?

    ..Tom
    There have been extensive debates here, with one particular person, who claims that it is also not illegal here. The truth is that there is no single law that specifically states that the practice is illegal, but rather a whole series of laws pertaining to lane use, passing, etc. that deal with the issue.

    *EDIT* Oh, and as always HTA 172.
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  15. #55
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    There have been extensive debates here, with one particular person, who claims that it is also not illegal here. The truth is that there is no single law that specifically states that the practice is illegal, but rather a whole series of laws pertaining to lane use, passing, etc. that deal with the issue.

    *EDIT* Oh, and as always HTA 172.

    Just ask G4Getmoney what happened. ouch.

  16. #56
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by nfq View Post
    Just ask G4Getmoney what happened. ouch.
    Ultimately he was found not guilty but by then had lost his bike, because he wasn't capable of paying the impound. Seems to me that he sold it to a member for the amount of the impound fee.
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  17. #57
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    Re: Hypothetical situation - lane split, door prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacLennan View Post
    Ultimately he was found not guilty but by then had lost his bike, because he wasn't capable of paying the impound. Seems to me that he sold it to a member for the amount of the impound fee.
    exactly. Ridiculous headache for what it was worth.
    Punishment doesn't fit the crime. But by the time you have your day in court, you're out thousands and thousands of dollars.

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